SUBSCRIBE | NEWSLETTERS | MAPS | VIDEOS | BLOGS | MARKETPLACE | CONTESTS
TRY BACKPACKER FREE!
SUBSCRIBE NOW and get
2 Free Issues and 3 Free Gifts!
Full Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Email: (required)
If I like it and decide to continue, I'll pay just $12.00, and receive a full one-year subscription (9 issues in all), a 73% savings off the newsstand price! If for any reason I decide not to continue, I'll write "cancel" on the invoice and owe nothing.
Your subscription includes 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Or click here to pay now and get 2 extra issues
Offer valid in US only.


» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

 

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic new poll
Topic: Grizzly Bears and Hunting...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
rangersven Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3537
Joined: Jul. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 10:25 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://missoulian.com/news....f4.html

--------------
"Backpacker.com's Original Provocateur"
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 2
double cabin Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16482
Joined: Nov. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 10:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

“We have grizzly populations expanding into places that are not suitable habitat,” committee chairman Harv Fosgren of the U.S. Forest Service said. “We need to show we’re willing to step up and manage those bears.”

I still want to wait a couple of years and see what shakes out from the demise of Whitebark Pines.

I do believe in revenue, not expenditure, based game management. However I want any hunters lucky enough to win a lottery for a tag to be directed to specific 'probl;em" bears by G&F. I believe this has worked well with black bears in the Upper Midwest.


--------------
We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.

http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=129511480442251
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 3
TravisNWood Search for posts by this member.
W Y O M I N G
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16306
Joined: Apr. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 11:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Dec. 15 2012, 8:35 am)
QUOTE
"...I do believe in revenue, not expenditure, based game management...."

Grizzly hunting will not be revenue-based. No bear or predator-hunting program in the state of Wyoming pays for itself. Grizzly hunting won't either. The costs to administer a grizzly-hunting program in the state of Wyoming will far exceed revenue gained.

Black bear and mountain lion are two examples of programs that have for years cost more than they ever earned. That information is found in Wyoming Fish & Game annual reports for the last several years. (See appendix C for each year.)

The fact is, many hunting programs in Wyoming barely support themselves at all. If it were not for pronghorn hunting, many of the other hunting programs would operate in the red or close to it. Pronghorn hunting is the big money maker in this state. And it helps fund many of the other hunting programs.

It is simply short-sighted and misleading to think grizzly hunting will earn income for the state. It will not.


--------------
Location — Wyoming
Webpages — Cloud Peak Wilderness Maps — Rocky Mountain Wildlife
Photos — Bighorn Mountains — Wyoming Steppes
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 4
wycanislatrans Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2682
Joined: Nov. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 12:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

IMO, the state of Wyo loses money on predator management because they take a very shortsighted (and 1950's) approach to predator management.

To be more specific I don't know that the programs could or would be a money maker, but I would be willing to bet they could at least operate near the break-even point. Just won't happen however.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 5
big_load Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 23543
Joined: Jun. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 1:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Dec. 15 2012, 10:35 am)
QUOTE
“We have grizzly populations expanding into places that are not suitable habitat,” committee chairman Harv Fosgren of the U.S. Forest Service said.

If it's not suitable habitat, wouldn't they be unable to survive?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 6
big_load Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 23543
Joined: Jun. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 1:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Dec. 15 2012, 10:35 am)
QUOTE
“We need to show we’re willing to step up and manage those bears.”

Why? Using the word "show" here seems almost like a Freudian slip.  Is it less about solving a real problem than about being responsive to pressure groups?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 7
SW Mtn backpacker Search for posts by this member.
Born to hike, forced to work ...
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7085
Joined: Jul. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The West is not unpopulated, so letting them get accustomed to a food source in town isn't realistic.  The ideal would be to expand Yellowstone, keep the deeper forest wilderness areas a safe place for grizzly breeding populations, and allow hunting on the outskirts of town (probably not that comforting to condo owners nearby but welcome to the wild West).

--------------
Usually Southwest and then some.

In wildness is the preservation of the world. - Henry Thoreau
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 8
big_load Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 23543
Joined: Jun. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 2:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(SW Mtn backpacker @ Dec. 15 2012, 2:17 pm)
QUOTE
The West is not unpopulated, so letting them get accustomed to a food source in town isn't realistic.  The ideal would be to expand Yellowstone, keep the deeper forest wilderness areas a safe place for grizzly breeding populations, and allow hunting on the outskirts of town (probably not that comforting to condo owners nearby but welcome to the wild West).

Perhaps it's just the reporting, but why didn't he make a stronger argument, such as referring to bears in town, unnatural food source, or some actual numbers?  The statements were more about asserting dominion than justifying the need for it.  It smells an awful lot like trying to lock in the solution before stating the problem in enough detail properly evaluate that solution.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 9
johnhens Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 5123
Joined: Jan. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 2:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wycanislatrans @ Dec. 15 2012, 11:21 am)
QUOTE
IMO, the state of Wyo loses money on predator management because they take a very shortsighted (and 1950's) approach to predator management.

To be more specific I don't know that the programs could or would be a money maker, but I would be willing to bet they could at least operate near the break-even point. Just won't happen however.

I would be interested in hearing your opinions of their problems with predator mgmt.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 10
double cabin Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16482
Joined: Nov. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 4:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Grizzly hunting will not be revenue-based. No bear or predator-hunting program in the state of Wyoming pays for itself. Grizzly hunting won't either. The costs to administer a grizzly-hunting program in the state of Wyoming will far exceed revenue gained."


Travis,

There are no specifics for costs in the reports. Are we talking salaries, collar/chip monitoring by plane, sign posting, hunter education courses,...? Are these actual hunt administration costs or complete species management costs?

When it comes down to killing predators beyond poaching in maintaining population numbers hunters either pay for licenses or professional/government marksman/trappers are paid by the State or Federal Government. One is revenue, one is expense, no?

What I'd like to know is if you know of anywhere I can get an itemized report of management program costs?

thanks Travis.


--------------
We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.

http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=129511480442251
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 11
TravisNWood Search for posts by this member.
W Y O M I N G
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16306
Joined: Apr. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 5:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Travis:
QUOTE

"Grizzly hunting will not be revenue-based. No bear or predator-hunting program in the state of Wyoming pays for itself. Grizzly hunting won't either. The costs to administer a grizzly-hunting program in the state of Wyoming will far exceed revenue gained."

Travis,

There are no specifics for costs in the reports. Are we talking salaries, collar/chip monitoring by plane, sign posting, hunter education courses,...? Are these actual hunt administration costs or complete species management costs?

When it comes down to killing predators beyond poaching in maintaining population numbers hunters either pay for licenses or professional/government marksman/trappers are paid by the State or Federal Government. One is revenue, one is expense, no?

What I'd like to know is if you know of anywhere I can get an itemized report of management program costs?

thanks Travis.

You know what, DC? I'd bet you did not even look for details. :D Find Annual Reports for the last nine years at Commission Annual Reports. The most recent report to be published, of course, is the Commission Annual Report 2011 (PDF download) available from the link above.

You can find details for the Mountain Lion Program on Page A-11 of that document. Rounding off, in 2010 the program cost $575,000. But the revenue was only $219,000, only 38% of costs to the state of Wyoming.

You can find details for the Black Bear Program on Page A-9 of that document. Rounding off, in 2010 the program cost $761,000. But the revenue was only $373,000, only 49% of costs to the state of Wyoming.

But don't get me wrong. Hunters spend money while they are in the state of Wyoming. The problem is that the money does not go to Game and Fish. It goes to outfitters, motels, restaurants, etc.

Great! The Wyoming Game and Fish Department is subsidizing the tourist industry while we read again this year: Wyoming Game and Fish faces budget shortfall.

That is not revenue-based management. And it is a poor model to hold up for grizzly management. Regarding your other questions of break-down of costs such as employee salarees, signing, etc. etc., you need to do your own work. There is plenty of that information there and in other Game and Fish documents.

The point is that you have NO foundation for claiming revenue-based management.


--------------
Location — Wyoming
Webpages — Cloud Peak Wilderness Maps — Rocky Mountain Wildlife
Photos — Bighorn Mountains — Wyoming Steppes
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 12
wycanislatrans Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2682
Joined: Nov. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 15 2012, 7:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(johnhens @ Dec. 15 2012, 12:29 pm)
QUOTE

(wycanislatrans @ Dec. 15 2012, 11:21 am)
QUOTE
IMO, the state of Wyo loses money on predator management because they take a very shortsighted (and 1950's) approach to predator management.

To be more specific I don't know that the programs could or would be a money maker, but I would be willing to bet they could at least operate near the break-even point. Just won't happen however.

I would be interested in hearing your opinions of their problems with predator mgmt.

Well the problems are several, but it can be boiled down to a philosophical issue. We still view predators as a nuisance that should be cut to minimal populatins at all cost. We view them as a issue to deal with rather than an asset to the state.

Lets take Travis' mountain lion numbers for example.

QUOTE
You can find details for the Mountain Lion Program on Page A-11 of that document. Rounding off, in 2010 the program cost $575,000. But the revenue was only $219,000, only 38% of costs to the state of Wyoming.


All the while the cost of a resident mountain lion permit is $30.00

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/fiscal/license/licprices/default.aspx

Now I note the non-resident price is $362.  Why the huge gap? The reason is mountain lion is not considered a valuable animal here. I can tell you that dedicated mountian lion hunters, while they would gripe about the cost increase would pay more than $30. As a sidenote, we have no-problem gouging the out-of-staters.

Wolf is an even better example, the resident tags were $18.00. Why? Take a look at the price range of elk tags and you will see why.

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/fiscal/license/licprices/default.aspx

A resident pays $52 and a non-resident pays $577.

We would rather be in the business of elk farming than have more balance in our populations.

Now I note I never said G/F would or should make money off predators, but I also don't support public funding to kill predators either. If ranchers have a problem with predators they should allow hunters paying for predator hunts. Either that or the Wyoming Livestock Growers should fund it themselves, not the state.

I also personally believe the trend (and there is data to support this) is gravitating towards wildlife viewing rather than hunting. I'm not saying hunting will go away, nor should it. However alternative forms of revenue should be looked at with this in mind and management should come at this issue with a similar perspective.

Currently game and fish tend to focus on "game species" big game most importantly. Non-game species are often an afterthought. (Unless the issue is forced by federal means such as endangered species) Even then the endangered species are not really considered as much of an asset.

In a nutshell, money talks and the revenue generators for game and fish are antelope, deer and elk.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 13
BradMT Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3930
Joined: May 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 16 2012, 12:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Personally, I love those dang grizzlies. But their population could likely benefit from reduced numbers. No, it won't be a money maker, and will cost. But it's time imo. Doubt I'd even put in for a tag, but agree problem bears should be targeted somehow.

--------------
Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 14
johnhens Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 5123
Joined: Jan. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 16 2012, 3:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks wycanislatrans, good insight.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
13 replies since Dec. 15 2012, 10:25 am < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


 
reply to topic new topic new poll

» Quick Reply Grizzly Bears and Hunting...
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code



Get 2 FREE Trial Issues and 3 FREE GIFTS
Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
The Best Trails in America
YES! Please send me my FREE trial issues of Backpacker
and my 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Full Name:
City:
Address 1:
Zip Code:
State:
Address 2:
Email (required):
Free trial offer valid for US subscribers only. Canadian subscriptions | International subscriptions