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Topic: Carbs are a better fuel source at high altitudes., At least with mice they are.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 12:41 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

At high altitude, carbs are the fuel of choice

December 6, 2012

Mice living in the high-altitude, oxygen-starved environment of the Andean mountains survive those harsh conditions by fueling their muscles with carbohydrates. The findings, reported online on December 6 in Current Biology, a Cell Press publication, provide the first compelling evidence of a clear difference in energy metabolism between high- and low-altitude native mammals.


At an altitude of roughly 4,000 meters, every breath of air contains about 40 percent less oxygen than it would at sea level. Under those conditions, carbohydrates are the logical energy source. That's because carbs can supply 15 percent more energy for the same amount of oxygen in comparison to fats.

Source.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not really a shocking conclusion, climbers have always relied on carbs and liquids at high altitude.  

Nice to see some scientific explanation of why carb loading at high altutude works.

I still say that Kendall Mint Cake is the best thing ever devised for climbing fuel, and it is some of the most concentrated carb ever put into a tansportable, edible, and durable form.

And bacon bars when you get down to base camp.  Almost no carbs but they make great soups and replace what you lost at high altitude.  IMHO, of course.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Agreed that this is "common knowledge" in climbing circles.

I live on simple carbs when I'm climbing at altitude. The simpler the better... sour patch kids, starburst, etc... with occassional cereal bars and peanut M&Ms. Digesting fats makes me tired. Protein makes me vomit.

When I'm back at camp I can stomach fats and proteins in limited amounts. Also, as I acclimate I stomach more fats and protein.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well yeah.  You're already working hard enough at being there.  Calories need to be quick and easy to meet the demand.

Not sure why this needed research. Just ask the Pika.

I lose all desire to eat at altitude.  This corrects itself back at lower elevations when I suddenly start thinking I'd cut you for a double bacon cheeseburger.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, I don't need to give up carbs, I just need to move to a higher place!

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
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Not sure why this needed research.

The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work?

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
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Not sure why this needed research.

The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work?

Getting paid to climb...and we missed it.

Because it's something we think "duh!" at.

We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 2:05 pm)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE
Not sure why this needed research.

The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work?

Getting paid to climb...and we missed it.

Because it's something we think "duh!" at.

We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.

Submit for a grant to fund the evaluation. Hire some of us to think of ideas.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(desert dweller @ Dec. 06 2012, 4:07 pm)
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 2:05 pm)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE
Not sure why this needed research.

The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work?

Getting paid to climb...and we missed it.

Because it's something we think "duh!" at.

We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.

Submit for a grant to fund the evaluation. Hire some of us to think of ideas.

I really like how you think.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Odd, when I was a high school cross country runner, we carb loaded then too.  I'm kind of scratching my head to wonder if this is really something we needed to study.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 5:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Pete is a professor I know at the University of Ottawa. He got grant money for this "research":

http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/beard.html

He also got funding for research to determine if you get wetter running or walking from Point A to Point B when it's raining.

Something else even stupider, too... but I can't remember what it was.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 5:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It squares pretty well with my experience.  At higher elevations, I really don't have an appetite for anything but carbs.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 5:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 4:05 pm)
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We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.

The effects of alcohol at altitude? The stated significance of findings could be the dangers associated with not being able to find your own tent.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 6:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I avoid mice in my carbs,TYVM?

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 5:46 pm)
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 4:05 pm)
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We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.

The effects of alcohol at altitude? The stated significance of findings could be the dangers associated with not being able to find your own tent.

Random sampling from our known pool of test subjects or should we set parameters for body weight, altitude experience, and alcohol tolerance levels?

We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well.

I think we can put this together for next mid September.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 7:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sign me up for the high tolerance group on Jack Daniels.

Would like to test the difference with Knob Creek also, if the government can afford it.

I suggest that all tests be run at least 10 times each, at 2000 foot intervals between 6000 and 140000 feet, and be sure to cover the differences in each of the 4 seasons.

If I can think of any other multipliers I will get back to you.

PS:  Maybe we better consider measuring the difference on each of the four cardinal directions in approaching the peak?


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
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We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well.

Agreed. A good starting point:

Single Malt Whiskey
Blended Malt Whiskey
Vatted Malt Whiskey
Single Grain Whiskey
Blended Grain Whiskey
Pure Pot Still Whiskey
Cask Strength Whiskey
American Whiskey
Rye Whiskey
Straight Whiskey
Bourbon Whiskey
Straight Bourbon Whiskey - wwwest volunteering*
Tennessee Whiskey - wwwest volunteering
Scotch Whiskeys
•Lowland Malt
•Speyside Malt
•Sherry Cask Malt
•Highland Malt
•Island Malt
•Islay Malt
German Whiskey
Irish Whiskey
Japanese Whiskey
Indian Whiskey
Finnish Whiskey
Canadian Whiskey

*Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500'


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 9:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm)
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*Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500'

Yes we did.

At 3500' it has a direct effect of humoritization of interpersonal conflicts which result in dissolution of proto-relationships.

All test subjects were affected.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 9:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE
We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well.

Agreed. A good starting point:

Single Malt Whiskey
Blended Malt Whiskey
Vatted Malt Whiskey
Single Grain Whiskey
Blended Grain Whiskey
Pure Pot Still Whiskey
Cask Strength Whiskey
American Whiskey
Rye Whiskey
Straight Whiskey
Bourbon Whiskey
Straight Bourbon Whiskey - wwwest volunteering*
Tennessee Whiskey - wwwest volunteering
Scotch Whiskeys
•Lowland Malt
•Speyside Malt
•Sherry Cask Malt
•Highland Malt
•Island Malt
•Islay Malt
German Whiskey
Irish Whiskey
Japanese Whiskey
Indian Whiskey
Finnish Whiskey
Canadian Whiskey

*Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500'

Comprehensive list.  Excellent start.

I hate to do this but someone needs to be given ArKay as our control subject.  Preferably someone without an established taste preference for any of the above.  Or lacking the sense of taste entirely.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 10:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 9:54 pm)
QUOTE
I hate to do this but someone needs to be given ArKay as our control subject.  Preferably someone without an established taste preference for any of the above.  Or lacking the sense of taste entirely.

I'll do that... in exchange for joint first author on the paper.

You'll need preliminary data for the grant application. I suggest enough repetition to show a statistically significant trend.

Wine varietals that will be needed (not extensive, but it should be enough of a common sampling)

Barbera
Cabernet Franc
Cabernet Sauvignon  
Cayetana
Chardonnay  
Charbono
Chenin Blanc
Cinsault
Gamay
Gewürztraminer  
Grenache  
Grüner Veltliner  
Macabeo
Merlot
Malbec
Muscadelle
Muscat
Nebbiolo
Petite Syrah
Pinot Blanc
Pinot Gris / Pinot Grigio  
Pinot Noir
Pinotage
Riesling
Sangiovese
Sangiovese Grosso
Sauvignon Blanc  
Semillon
Seyval
Syrah / Shiraz
Tempranillo  
Viognier
Zinfandel
Zweigelt
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 11:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Having a doctor co-author would net us extra credibility. :)

I bet the vineyards would contribute product for advertising nods.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 11:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I do know that Gin really complements the aroma of stunted junipers around your campsite at 11-12,000' +, just saying...

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 8:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 9:35 pm)
QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm)
QUOTE
*Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500'

Yes we did.

At 3500' it has a direct effect of humoritization of interpersonal conflicts which result in dissolution of proto-relationships.

All test subjects were affected.

It also causes about 10% of test subjects to rub one out in the middle of the night.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 9:03 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 07 2012, 8:33 am)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 9:35 pm)
QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm)
QUOTE
*Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500'

Yes we did.

At 3500' it has a direct effect of humoritization of interpersonal conflicts which result in dissolution of proto-relationships.

All test subjects were affected.

It also causes about 10% of test subjects to rub one out in the middle of the night.

That was an unanticipated result given the environmental conditions.

We should probably account for that variable in the next round of tests.

Whomever is collecting data should be prohibited from interacting directly with the individual.

It will be interesting to see if any of the other test subjects man up and offer to assist if that occurs again.  I expected the unmistakable vocalizations to encourage more cooperative behavior in the group.  The lack of response was surprising.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:54 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
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We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well.
Comprehensive list.  Excellent start.

*raises hand* Mead me!

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hiking_tiger @ Dec. 07 2012, 1:23 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:54 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE
We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well.
Comprehensive list.  Excellent start.

*raises hand* Mead me!

Which one?

Mead (M.'ee.d)  - made with honey, water and yeast optionally with flavoring ingredients
Sack mead (Sak') - a sweeter mead, with more honey
Melomel (Mel'.o.mel) - mead made with fruit or fruit juice
Metheglin (Me.theg'.lin) -  mead made with spices and extracts
Morat  (Mor'.at) - mead made with mulberries
Acerglin (Ace'.cerg.lin) - mead made with maple syrup
Pyment (Pie'.ment) - mead made with both honey and grapes
Hippocras (Hip'.po.cras ) - honey, grapes, and spices
Cyser (Sy'.zer) - honey and apples or apple cider (apple juice in Europe) Can also be made with peach, cherry or pear cider
Braggot  (Brag'.got)- honey and malt, sort of a mead-beer
Oxymel  (Ox'.ee.mel) - mead mixed with wine vinegar
Rhodomel  (Road'.o.mel) - honey with attar, a rose petal distillate, or rose petals
Capsicumel (Caps'.sic.cu.mel) - honey with chile peppers
Omphacomel (Ohm'.pha.co.mel) - mead and verjuice, the juice of unripe grapes
T'ej (T'.Ej (Ej as in Edge)) - T'ej is honey, water and hops. It is the national drink of Ethiopia, and has a unique taste
Bochet (Bo-SHAY) - sack mead that has been burnt or charred
Rhyzamel (RISE-uh-mel) - mead made with root vegetables
Lactomel (LACK-toe (as in "big toe")-mel) - mead made with milk


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 07 2012, 12:31 pm)
QUOTE

(hiking_tiger @ Dec. 07 2012, 1:23 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:54 pm)
QUOTE

(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE
We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well.
Comprehensive list.  Excellent start.

*raises hand* Mead me!

Which one?

Mead (M.'ee.d)  - made with honey, water and yeast optionally with flavoring ingredients
Sack mead (Sak') - a sweeter mead, with more honey
Melomel (Mel'.o.mel) - mead made with fruit or fruit juice
Metheglin (Me.theg'.lin) -  mead made with spices and extracts
Morat  (Mor'.at) - mead made with mulberries
Acerglin (Ace'.cerg.lin) - mead made with maple syrup
Pyment (Pie'.ment) - mead made with both honey and grapes
Hippocras (Hip'.po.cras ) - honey, grapes, and spices
Cyser (Sy'.zer) - honey and apples or apple cider (apple juice in Europe) Can also be made with peach, cherry or pear cider
Braggot  (Brag'.got)- honey and malt, sort of a mead-beer
Oxymel  (Ox'.ee.mel) - mead mixed with wine vinegar
Rhodomel  (Road'.o.mel) - honey with attar, a rose petal distillate, or rose petals
Capsicumel (Caps'.sic.cu.mel) - honey with chile peppers
Omphacomel (Ohm'.pha.co.mel) - mead and verjuice, the juice of unripe grapes
T'ej (T'.Ej (Ej as in Edge)) - T'ej is honey, water and hops. It is the national drink of Ethiopia, and has a unique taste
Bochet (Bo-SHAY) - sack mead that has been burnt or charred
Rhyzamel (RISE-uh-mel) - mead made with root vegetables
Lactomel (LACK-toe (as in "big toe")-mel) - mead made with milk

Yes! It is a test after all.

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“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.” – Attributed to the Buddhism tradition…
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 2:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You still need some protein.  Crabs are a nice fuel source at high latitudes.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2012, 3:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You still need some protein.  Crabs are a nice fuel source at high latitudes

An interesting, but little known fact, I guess.

Sadly, taking a full active part in this test will kill your crabs, no matter how bad the infestation may be, thus leaving you without a ready source of protein.

Besides, protein is overrated when one has a full supply of Knob Creek to test.


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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 3:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 4:05 pm)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
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Not sure why this needed research.

The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work?

Getting paid to climb...and we missed it.

Because it's something we think "duh!" at.

We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.

Haha

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