| Topic: Carbs are a better fuel source at high altitudes., At least with mice they are. | < Next Oldest | Next Newest > |
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| Post Number: 1
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desert dweller 
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 12:41 pm |
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At high altitude, carbs are the fuel of choice
December 6, 2012
Mice living in the high-altitude, oxygen-starved environment of the Andean mountains survive those harsh conditions by fueling their muscles with carbohydrates. The findings, reported online on December 6 in Current Biology, a Cell Press publication, provide the first compelling evidence of a clear difference in energy metabolism between high- and low-altitude native mammals.
At an altitude of roughly 4,000 meters, every breath of air contains about 40 percent less oxygen than it would at sea level. Under those conditions, carbohydrates are the logical energy source. That's because carbs can supply 15 percent more energy for the same amount of oxygen in comparison to fats.
Source.
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| Post Number: 2
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wwwest
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:25 pm |
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Not really a shocking conclusion, climbers have always relied on carbs and liquids at high altitude.
Nice to see some scientific explanation of why carb loading at high altutude works.
I still say that Kendall Mint Cake is the best thing ever devised for climbing fuel, and it is some of the most concentrated carb ever put into a tansportable, edible, and durable form.
And bacon bars when you get down to base camp. Almost no carbs but they make great soups and replace what you lost at high altitude. IMHO, of course.
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| Post Number: 3
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WalksWithBlackflies
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:31 pm |
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Agreed that this is "common knowledge" in climbing circles.
I live on simple carbs when I'm climbing at altitude. The simpler the better... sour patch kids, starburst, etc... with occassional cereal bars and peanut M&Ms. Digesting fats makes me tired. Protein makes me vomit.
When I'm back at camp I can stomach fats and proteins in limited amounts. Also, as I acclimate I stomach more fats and protein.
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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| Post Number: 4
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spindle
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm |
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Well yeah. You're already working hard enough at being there. Calories need to be quick and easy to meet the demand.
Not sure why this needed research. Just ask the Pika.
I lose all desire to eat at altitude. This corrects itself back at lower elevations when I suddenly start thinking I'd cut you for a double bacon cheeseburger.
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| Post Number: 5
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Firedancer
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:42 pm |
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So, I don't need to give up carbs, I just need to move to a higher place!
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| Post Number: 6
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| Post Number: 7
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spindle
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:05 pm |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE Not sure why this needed research. The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work?
Getting paid to climb...and we missed it.
Because it's something we think "duh!" at.
We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.
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| Post Number: 8
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desert dweller
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:07 pm |
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 2:05 pm)
QUOTE
(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE Not sure why this needed research. The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work? Getting paid to climb...and we missed it. Because it's something we think "duh!" at. We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.
Submit for a grant to fund the evaluation. Hire some of us to think of ideas.
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| Post Number: 9
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spindle
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:21 pm |
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(desert dweller @ Dec. 06 2012, 4:07 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 2:05 pm)
QUOTE
(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE Not sure why this needed research. The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work? Getting paid to climb...and we missed it. Because it's something we think "duh!" at. We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas. Submit for a grant to fund the evaluation. Hire some of us to think of ideas.
I really like how you think.
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| Post Number: 10
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JimInMD
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 4:27 pm |
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Odd, when I was a high school cross country runner, we carb loaded then too. I'm kind of scratching my head to wonder if this is really something we needed to study.
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| Post Number: 11
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WalksWithBlackflies
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 5:16 pm |
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Pete is a professor I know at the University of Ottawa. He got grant money for this "research":
http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/beard.html
He also got funding for research to determine if you get wetter running or walking from Point A to Point B when it's raining.
Something else even stupider, too... but I can't remember what it was.
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| Post Number: 12
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big_load
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 5:28 pm |
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It squares pretty well with my experience. At higher elevations, I really don't have an appetite for anything but carbs.
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| Post Number: 13
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| Post Number: 14
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TDale
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 6:57 pm |
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I avoid mice in my carbs,TYVM?
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| Post Number: 15
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spindle
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 5:46 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 4:05 pm)
QUOTE We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas. The effects of alcohol at altitude? The stated significance of findings could be the dangers associated with not being able to find your own tent.
Random sampling from our known pool of test subjects or should we set parameters for body weight, altitude experience, and alcohol tolerance levels?
We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well.
I think we can put this together for next mid September.
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| Post Number: 16
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wwwest
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 7:42 pm |
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Sign me up for the high tolerance group on Jack Daniels.
Would like to test the difference with Knob Creek also, if the government can afford it.
I suggest that all tests be run at least 10 times each, at 2000 foot intervals between 6000 and 140000 feet, and be sure to cover the differences in each of the 4 seasons.
If I can think of any other multipliers I will get back to you.
PS: Maybe we better consider measuring the difference on each of the four cardinal directions in approaching the peak?
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| Post Number: 17
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| Post Number: 19
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spindle
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 9:54 pm |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well. Agreed. A good starting point: Single Malt Whiskey Blended Malt Whiskey Vatted Malt Whiskey Single Grain Whiskey Blended Grain Whiskey Pure Pot Still Whiskey Cask Strength Whiskey American Whiskey Rye Whiskey Straight Whiskey Bourbon Whiskey Straight Bourbon Whiskey - wwwest volunteering* Tennessee Whiskey - wwwest volunteering Scotch Whiskeys •Lowland Malt •Speyside Malt •Sherry Cask Malt •Highland Malt •Island Malt •Islay Malt German Whiskey Irish Whiskey Japanese Whiskey Indian Whiskey Finnish Whiskey Canadian Whiskey *Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500'
Comprehensive list. Excellent start.
I hate to do this but someone needs to be given ArKay as our control subject. Preferably someone without an established taste preference for any of the above. Or lacking the sense of taste entirely.
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| Post Number: 20
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| Post Number: 21
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spindle
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 11:23 pm |
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Having a doctor co-author would net us extra credibility. 
I bet the vineyards would contribute product for advertising nods.
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| Post Number: 22
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swimswithtrout
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Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 11:26 pm |
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I do know that Gin really complements the aroma of stunted junipers around your campsite at 11-12,000' +, just saying...
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| Post Number: 23
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WalksWithBlackflies
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Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 8:33 am |
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 9:35 pm)
QUOTE
(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm)
QUOTE *Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500' Yes we did. At 3500' it has a direct effect of humoritization of interpersonal conflicts which result in dissolution of proto-relationships. All test subjects were affected.
It also causes about 10% of test subjects to rub one out in the middle of the night.
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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| Post Number: 24
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spindle
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Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 9:03 am |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 07 2012, 8:33 am)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 9:35 pm)
QUOTE
(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:59 pm)
QUOTE *Spindle, Vinovampire, and I collected some preliminary Knob Creek data this past January at 3,500' Yes we did. At 3500' it has a direct effect of humoritization of interpersonal conflicts which result in dissolution of proto-relationships. All test subjects were affected. It also causes about 10% of test subjects to rub one out in the middle of the night.
That was an unanticipated result given the environmental conditions.
We should probably account for that variable in the next round of tests.
Whomever is collecting data should be prohibited from interacting directly with the individual.
It will be interesting to see if any of the other test subjects man up and offer to assist if that occurs again. I expected the unmistakable vocalizations to encourage more cooperative behavior in the group. The lack of response was surprising.
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| Post Number: 25
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hiking_tiger
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Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:23 pm |
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:54 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well. Comprehensive list. Excellent start.
*raises hand* Mead me!
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“Sometimes you have to be ready to receive the information before it can take hold.” – C. Schwarz
“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.” – Attributed to the Buddhism tradition…
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| Post Number: 26
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WalksWithBlackflies
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Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:31 pm |
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(hiking_tiger @ Dec. 07 2012, 1:23 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:54 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well. Comprehensive list. Excellent start. *raises hand* Mead me!
Which one?
Mead (M.'ee.d) - made with honey, water and yeast optionally with flavoring ingredients
Sack mead (Sak') - a sweeter mead, with more honey
Melomel (Mel'.o.mel) - mead made with fruit or fruit juice
Metheglin (Me.theg'.lin) - mead made with spices and extracts
Morat (Mor'.at) - mead made with mulberries
Acerglin (Ace'.cerg.lin) - mead made with maple syrup
Pyment (Pie'.ment) - mead made with both honey and grapes
Hippocras (Hip'.po.cras ) - honey, grapes, and spices
Cyser (Sy'.zer) - honey and apples or apple cider (apple juice in Europe) Can also be made with peach, cherry or pear cider
Braggot (Brag'.got)- honey and malt, sort of a mead-beer
Oxymel (Ox'.ee.mel) - mead mixed with wine vinegar
Rhodomel (Road'.o.mel) - honey with attar, a rose petal distillate, or rose petals
Capsicumel (Caps'.sic.cu.mel) - honey with chile peppers
Omphacomel (Ohm'.pha.co.mel) - mead and verjuice, the juice of unripe grapes
T'ej (T'.Ej (Ej as in Edge)) - T'ej is honey, water and hops. It is the national drink of Ethiopia, and has a unique taste
Bochet (Bo-SHAY) - sack mead that has been burnt or charred
Rhyzamel (RISE-uh-mel) - mead made with root vegetables
Lactomel (LACK-toe (as in "big toe")-mel) - mead made with milk
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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| Post Number: 27
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hiking_tiger
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Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:36 pm |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 07 2012, 12:31 pm)
QUOTE
(hiking_tiger @ Dec. 07 2012, 1:23 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 8:54 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE We'll need to observe the effects of different alcoholic products as well. Comprehensive list. Excellent start. *raises hand* Mead me! Which one? Mead (M.'ee.d) - made with honey, water and yeast optionally with flavoring ingredients Sack mead (Sak') - a sweeter mead, with more honey Melomel (Mel'.o.mel) - mead made with fruit or fruit juice Metheglin (Me.theg'.lin) - mead made with spices and extracts Morat (Mor'.at) - mead made with mulberries Acerglin (Ace'.cerg.lin) - mead made with maple syrup Pyment (Pie'.ment) - mead made with both honey and grapes Hippocras (Hip'.po.cras ) - honey, grapes, and spices Cyser (Sy'.zer) - honey and apples or apple cider (apple juice in Europe) Can also be made with peach, cherry or pear cider Braggot (Brag'.got)- honey and malt, sort of a mead-beer Oxymel (Ox'.ee.mel) - mead mixed with wine vinegar Rhodomel (Road'.o.mel) - honey with attar, a rose petal distillate, or rose petals Capsicumel (Caps'.sic.cu.mel) - honey with chile peppers Omphacomel (Ohm'.pha.co.mel) - mead and verjuice, the juice of unripe grapes T'ej (T'.Ej (Ej as in Edge)) - T'ej is honey, water and hops. It is the national drink of Ethiopia, and has a unique taste Bochet (Bo-SHAY) - sack mead that has been burnt or charred Rhyzamel (RISE-uh-mel) - mead made with root vegetables Lactomel (LACK-toe (as in "big toe")-mel) - mead made with milk
Yes! It is a test after all.
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“Sometimes you have to be ready to receive the information before it can take hold.” – C. Schwarz
“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.” – Attributed to the Buddhism tradition…
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| Post Number: 28
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reubenstump
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Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 2:45 pm |
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You still need some protein. Crabs are a nice fuel source at high latitudes.
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| Post Number: 29
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wwwest
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Posted on: Dec. 08 2012, 3:37 pm |
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You still need some protein. Crabs are a nice fuel source at high latitudes
An interesting, but little known fact, I guess.
Sadly, taking a full active part in this test will kill your crabs, no matter how bad the infestation may be, thus leaving you without a ready source of protein.
Besides, protein is overrated when one has a full supply of Knob Creek to test.
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| Post Number: 30
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Reminiscence
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Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 3:56 pm |
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(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 4:05 pm)
QUOTE
(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
(spindle @ Dec. 06 2012, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE Not sure why this needed research. The real question is: Why didn't WE think about obtaining a grant to do this work? Getting paid to climb...and we missed it. Because it's something we think "duh!" at. We should evaluate the rest of our common knowledge topics for research ideas.
Haha
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Do something to help the rest:
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
