This question has been troubling me since last summer. As many of you know, I took a lengthy bicycle tour this summer and twice, once in Idaho and once in Montana - (state tropper in ID and local sheriff in MT) I was approached and asked to produce an ID. I wasn't doing anything other than resting in a park in ID and having a sandwich at a rest stop in MT. When I asked the officers if there was problem they said no but they just liked to know who was in their town. When I suggested that I'm not required to carry an ID, they both became rather belligerent and threatening so I produced my state ID just to satisfy them and avoid trouble. However, to me it was simple harassment since they could provide no justificable reason for asking for an ID. I know it's a small matter but it bothers me. I've asked our local police department and state AG's office but they are less than cooperative simply saying I should always comply with a police officer's request. Sounds a little totalitarian to me. My question to those of you with any legal expertise is, am I required to carry identification with me at all times and do I have to produce it if I'm not accused of any wrong doing? Thanks.
-------------- "Too often I have met men who boast only of how many miles they've traveled and not of what they've seen." - Louis L'Amour
Maybe they are trained to act "belligerent" to encourage everyone to produce ID's?
Maybe. Or maybe they're just bored and looking for something to do. Both incidents were in small towns. I'd be willing to talk to anyone about my trip and to be truthful, some of my most pleasant conversations were with police officers who were very helpful and genuinely interested in my trip. But these two guys were just plain unpleasant.
-------------- "Too often I have met men who boast only of how many miles they've traveled and not of what they've seen." - Louis L'Amour
I wear a Road ID bracelet with my name, my next of kin, a cell number where they can be reached, and a statement that I take no meds regularly. If I was riding in my own neighborhood, this would be all I had on me. If I was riding in another state, like you were, I would likely have my DL on me for ID when I tried to use my Credit Card for purchases.
I now wonder how they would react if all you had to offer was the bracelet, which is not state issued and has no picture. Maybe you should have started with your health insurance card.
Since courts have already ruled that vagrancy is not a crime, and that you do not need to carry cash to prove you are not a vagrant, I do not see why they needed to see ID. Perhaps you could write to ID and MT to ask them why they felt the officers had the right to get belligerent. Of course, one option would have been to take you to the station and fingerprint you, then run those to see if you were some wanted character, but I think that would have gotten them in big trouble.
I just don't see the need to harass an older gent sitting calmly on the bench.
Maybe they are trained to act "belligerent" to encourage everyone to produce ID's?
Maybe. Or maybe they're just bored and looking for something to do. Both incidents were in small towns. I'd be willing to talk to anyone about my trip and to be truthful, some of my most pleasant conversations were with police officers who were very helpful and genuinely interested in my trip. But these two guys were just plain unpleasant.
Airport immigration used to be downright unpleasant. The last two or three years, it seems that things have improved markedly. They don't bark at people as much -- and sometimes, they even say 'welcome home' with a smile.
As for small town officers, yeah, methinks the fewer visitors they get, the more inclined they are to check on the handful who do come. Imagine the NYPD checking up on all 'strangers'? I wouldn't take it personally. What works a lot is to be cooperative, hand over your ID, and then chat up a storm. Never know the tidbits you can learn about local lore. Not to mention keeping your own sanity and dignity.
-------------- The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
I don't know of any location that requires you to carry an ID. Furthermore, you may not be compelled to produce ID unless an officer has "reasonable suspicion" that you have committed a crime. They may of course always ask for it, but lacking RS they can not perform a "stop" and you are free to walk away at any time. If you're unsure and feeling froggy, you may always ask if you're being stopped or free to go.
In DC we have no requirement for ID and many people will claim not to have one when asked.
-------------- Checking out for a while, find me on FB.
Maybe you looked Canadian and thought you may be an illegal.
What does a Canadian look like? Hey, BC Pete, post a picture if you will.
Of course you look Canadian and Canadians look like you (for the most part). How would they know you're not here legally?
This situation arises here near the Mexican Border. Southern Arizona has a very large and legal Hispanic population. How would law enforcement know which ones were here legally or not?
Being on a bicycle gives them the excuse to ask for an ID.
-------------- Seek Higher Ground Can you feel the silence
You are nor required to carry ID. Years ago I stopped carrying ID on bp trips. I figured the only purpose it served was as a toe tag. If I get killed in the backcountry I want the coroner to have to earn his/her keep.
If you are stopped by a law enforcement officer they must have probable cause in order for you to be required to produce ID. Research the term Terry Stop (based upon a late 60's USSC decision). Since the police can always use the catchall "failure to obey", you can still go to jail even if you're in the right. You just won't be convicted.
-------------- you don't know what you got till it's gone
If you are stopped by a law enforcement officer they must have probable cause in order for you to be required to produce ID.
Not always true. PC gives me the right to arrest. RS gives me the right to stop (and a Terry Frisk if I have RS that you may be armed). RS may also give the officer the right to compell identification depending upon jurisdiction.
Jer,
It's wikipedia, but I didn't see anything glaringly wrong with it.
The little town (2000) on I-70 north of here has 6-7 police officers, plus State Patrol office, plus County Sheriff in a county of 5-6000. Plenty of policing, and they have to think of things to do.
There are two truck stops in town, and the town cops routinely spend the night shifts running every license plate, on both trucks and cars to see what they can find. They have a very enviable record of felony arrests for such a small place, based entirely on these "investigative" efforts, but it did get one of them killed two years ago when he discovered a fleeing felon and was shot to death.
They run plates at the motels also, and even go out to the rest stops to run plates and check IDs.
I think JimInMD pretty much has a grasp on the question.
I carry at least an older ID in my backpack because it's tough to recall my driver's license number. And, of course, if I'm driving, I have my wallet and official license.
Here's a hypothetical question: If bicycle riders deserve full rights and protection of the rules of the road — and I certainly believe they do — why not full obligation — such as the requirement to present a legal form of ID?
(BTW, I was gone from the forums when your trip report appeared, so let me just say here that that is the most impressive bike ride I've ever seen someone take the time to describe. Heck of a ride.)
Not a big deal, especially with all the crap nowdays, criminals running around, etc. Carry mine all the time. Even backpacking...like my DL weighs a lot or takes up a lot of space. Maybe just used to it out west.................. Actually I'd welcome a check, shows the police are looking for bad guys.
As mentioned not a requirement. OTOH as a practical matter when I'm asked, when I have one on me (say, not on a walk back from the beach) the seconds it takes to say "sure, here it is" keeps things pleasant. Getting into the "Have I done anything wrong officer?" cycle of potentially perceived challenge has two possible outcomes and 50% of them are bad (Duke Wayne wannabe that hasn't yet been culled detects a challenge and ups the ante, short term that is not a win). I'm not that good a judge of other's professionalism on short acquaintance so I just figure to save everybody's time and help them do their job as they view it. They get to see my very bad license photo, we have a smile at it and I'm on my way and they're on theirs.
Beat cops are no different than field botanists: everything familiar fades a bit into the background so the unfamiliar is noticed and paid attention to. As long as I'm approached reasonably professionally I'm not going to have an issue and when I'm not I file a complaint later, either directly or through my attorney's after the person with the handcuffs and the access to armed backup has gone on their bad tempered way.
Were I to be halted multiple times in the same town I'd probably come to a different conclusion, though that's never happened to me.
When asked to identify yourself, you are required to acknowlege with a name. Any name you give can be assigned as a known alias at a later point, so if you don't want to be known as "Piss Off"....
You are not REQUIRED to carry ID, but you may be detained until identification can be proven. So, while vagrancy is not a crime, you can still spend 72hrs in a cell until they run your prints through NCIC.
How much of a hassle are you willing to run? I got pulled over a year ago while a cop was profiling. He asked to search. I asked if he had a warrant. He said I could give consent or wait an hour while the warrant arrived. I had to pee, I let him search.
In years past, when I don't give consent, they empty the contents of my vehicle on the side of the road and let me put it all back together. When I give consent, they rifle my glove box and look for roaches in my ash tray and let me go.
So how much time do you have? How much do you want to push back? "Stop and frisk" may not be legal, but argueing legality with a knee on your neck and your hands in cuffs is kind of moot.
The request strikes me as a bit over the top. I mean, for pete's sake, if he's sitting in the rest area eating, he's doing what you expect there. Does the fact that he's riding a bike seem odd? Why not begin by talking to him, asking about what he's doing? Asking for ID right off seems aggressive and hostile to me--probably not what the local Chamber of Commerce really wants!
-------------- Bits of writerly thoughts and random short fiction found at The Ninja Librarian Blog
Honest law abiding citizens don't have to be afraid of such policies as long as citizens and media in an open free society are able to raise flags if and when abuses begin to occur. Given such, I personally prefer the notion of allowing police in any government entity the right to question and or ask for the ID's of anyone they come across regardless of the situation. Of course law breakers, illegal alien visitors, and uncooperative government haters have much to fear and that is some of what is behind the agenda of those currently whining whenever the subject is made public.
I just filed an application to renew my passport and requested both the passport book for most travel and the passport card for my trips near our borders. I'll most likely carry the passport card most of the time.
-------------- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
Being on a bicycle gives them the excuse to ask for an ID.
Really? How so?
I know all the arguements that you guys make for showing an ID without arguement. Still, it rankles me when I was doing nothing at all that even remotely was illegal. Had they asked for my name, I would have been glad to comply. Seems like just one more step toward a police state to me. Moreover, I didn't mention that in Idaho there was a collection of Harley riders just down the road that never appeared to be questioned. Go figure.
-------------- "Too often I have met men who boast only of how many miles they've traveled and not of what they've seen." - Louis L'Amour
Two cops potentially having a bad day are hardly steps towards a police state. Heck why not scratch that itch and write their agencies?
The Harleys prove my point: they were a commonplace (the west crawls with bikers in the good months from my observation). while a long distance cyclist (perhaps moreso in a mountain state) got their attention as a rarity.
That said if they struck you as unprofessional the way to address the issue is write their supervisors. Be part of the solution (well, unless there's plenty of room near your home for the black helicopters to make an unimpeded snatch and grab landing.....). habitually bad acting cops are repeat offenders so your's might just be the needed piece of the paper trail needed to get them straightened out. Think straw.
Here's a hypothetical question: If bicycle riders deserve full rights and protection of the rules of the road — and I certainly believe they do — why not full obligation — such as the requirement to present a legal form of ID?
I think bicyclists absolutely should be required to get licensed* (and pass written and practical tests to do so), register their vehicles, and carry said license while riding. It doesn't make any sense at all that they aren't already required to do this.
As it stands now, there is zero accountability for bad behavior by bicyclists...and in the Bay Area**, bicyclists take full advantage of that fact.
ETA: That said, this isn't currently the law (unfortunately), so those cops really had no legitimate reason to ask for ID.
*As a practical matter, this could be incorporated into the driver's license for any bicyclists who also drive, rather than requiring two separate licenses.
**This observation extends only to bicyclists here; in your region, they may well be better-behaved.
-------------- "If ricin is outlawed, only outlaws will mail letters with ricin."--National Ricin Association
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