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Hiker01 
Group: Members
Posts: 907
Joined: Jun. 2006
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 11:55 am |
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Same Ol. Cry a little bit, talk about bad judgement, ask for forgiveness. BLAH BLAH BLAH. He ruined a lot of peoples lives over the years.
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| Post Number: 4
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no_granola
minor deity
Group: Members
Posts: 12659
Joined: Dec. 2004
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 12:17 pm |
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Thank God! I'll finally be able to sleep again.
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The difference between people who think for themselves and those that follow the herd is that thinking people aren't afraid of reality.
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| Post Number: 5
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
Group: Members
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 1:35 pm |
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I would be more interested in a quantitative analysis of just how big the edge was over the other known doping methods of the time. Did it enable him to far exceed any other doped human, or was it just another instance of doping in a sport riddled with it? Were there any riders in the peloton that were not doping? If they are going to hold these races and claim they are dope free, who is going to be declared the winner for any year where the vast majority are using?
I am not saying he was in the right, or even that he was a good team leader. Just like the current topic in baseball as it relates to their HOF voting, if the people who make the rules are going to enforce them, then we need to know no one is getting around the rules. Bonds might have played by the rules as they were written at the time, but no one puts up better numbers after 30 like he did, and the improvement was all the indictment needed.
Lance might have been a great rider without the drugs, but we will never know.
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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HighGravity
Group: Members
Posts: 2379
Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 1:43 pm |
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I'm glad to see he finally owned up to it. He was making a fool of himself continuing to act like he was innocent. His buddy Hincapie lives up the street from me and owns a couple businesses around town. He admitted his doping a few months ago and no one really seems to be to bothered by it as he's known as a genuinely nice and decent fellow otherwise.
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 24125
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 1:50 pm |
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Something about perjury... I hope he gets justice.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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| Post Number: 8
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skolbe
Group: Members
Posts: 128
Joined: Sep. 2010
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 2:48 pm |
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So who is doping while backpacking...
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39801
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 9:13 pm |
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Who?
Is he married to one of the Kardashians?
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| Post Number: 12
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charadeur
Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: Mar. 2011
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 9:43 pm |
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My my. Professional athletes dope? No kidding? I don't care one way or another what these over paid over rated people do. I would rather hear about the adventures of someone here who climbed a mountain because of love for the challenge vs. the fame and fortune most professionals seek.
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BradMT
Group: Members
Posts: 3443
Joined: May 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 9:52 pm |
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The guy is a narcissistic A-Hole.
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39801
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 10:05 pm |
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Don't want "cheating" in pro cycling?
Then shorten the damn races! A hundred to a hundred fifty miles in a day over mountains for three weeks straight with two days off? That's like demanding American professional football players refuse to use helmets. Or corrective surgery. RGIII should either get well on his own without medical aid or he should leave the game. Cutting open his knee will certainly enhance future performance: shouldn't be allowed.
For i see two issues. Breaking established competitive rules and when caught rule breakers should suffer the consequences as laid down by those very-same rules. Then there's the far fuzzier notion of "fair play" that reminds me of that old movie about Olympic Competition Chariots of Fire[i] where, as i recall, having a [i]coach was considered unfair and cheating. Comes back to Armstrong in a way, his use of drugs to stay healthy during the Tour de France was cheating but his use of drugs to stay healthy when under the threat of his cancer was not? Rules of sport are by their nature arbitrary but "performance enhancing drug" rules seem more arbitrary than most. How much was Armstrong's performance enhanced by his chemotherapy? I'd say quite a lot, he's talented but even he wouldn't have been all that competitive were he dead.
My two cents is simply require professional medical supervision and talk off the pharmaceuticals phobia. RGIII's surgery and drug usage related to same is accepted: I'd say consider why? We want to go back to "the natural" body and state of competition? Ban all medical treatments for anything for the career of an athlete. Back to the "pure" state of nature!
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39801
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 12 2013, 10:23 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 12 2013, 7:13 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 12 2013, 7:05 pm)
QUOTE Don't want "cheating" in pro cycling?
Then shorten the damn races! A hundred to a hundred fifty miles in a day over mountains for three weeks straight with two days off? That's like demanding American professional football players refuse to use tape. You can make sports as easy as 4th grade homework -- and some people will still want to cheat -- and the more people think they can get away -- the more cheating there will likely be -- until the system loses all integrity and simply collapses altogether. Difficulty aside, there is also the prize money at the other end...
Possibly but it's guaranteed at those insane levels. Professional American football is similarly burdened in my opinion.
Otoh I've less emotionally engaged: breaking the rules means risking getting caught and getting caught ( the job of the referees etc ) means accepting the rules specified punishment. No more no less and without the "cheating" emotionalism.
Eddie Merkx got caught violating the rules, so did Alberto Contador. Both still retain championships.
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Deborah
Deborah - 18 months
Group: Members
Posts: 15746
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 12:52 am |
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(Lamebeaver @ Jan. 12 2013, 8:22 pm)
QUOTE
(Hiker01 @ Jan. 12 2013, 9:55 am)
QUOTE He ruined a lot of peoples lives over the years. Really? Ruined people's lives? Can you name any? He helped and inspired a lot of people fighting cancer. Yes it was all build on a false belief, but I fail to see where he ruined peoples lives.
I wondered about that comment too. Disillusion maybe, but ruin? I don't get that one.
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“What we need is production by the masses, not mass-production” Gandhi
“The hardest thing in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn” David Russell
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Talus.
Delsolation is my destination
Group: Members
Posts: 1897
Joined: Aug. 2006
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 5:43 am |
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(Deborah @ Jan. 13 2013, 12:52 am)
QUOTE
(Lamebeaver @ Jan. 12 2013, 8:22 pm)
QUOTE
(Hiker01 @ Jan. 12 2013, 9:55 am)
QUOTE He ruined a lot of peoples lives over the years. Really? Ruined people's lives? Can you name any? He helped and inspired a lot of people fighting cancer. Yes it was all build on a false belief, but I fail to see where he ruined peoples lives. I wondered about that comment too. Disillusion maybe, but ruin? I don't get that one.
Google Greg Lemond for one...
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“Mountains are not Stadiums where I satisfy my ambition to achieve, they are the cathedrals where I practice my religion.”
― Anatoli Boukreev
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39801
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 8:32 am |
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Le Mond was out of cycling maybe a decade before Armstrong was racing so that's improbable. Plus it was his own brother who shot Greg iirc.
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balzaccom
Group: Members
Posts: 437
Joined: Dec. 2010
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 11:19 am |
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IF he DOES admit doping...
Note that the Tour de France has already decided that Armstrong's seven titles will not be awarded to anyone--mainly because most of the people who finished behind him have already admitted/been convicted of doping. It's hard for me to be really angry at Armstrong over any of the rest of those guys.
And for everyone who complains about what a dirty sport cycling is...I would just point out that cycling has the toughest PED testing policy of any sport. And yes, they catch lots of violations.
And if the NFL, FIFA, MLB, NHL, etc had similar testing policies, they would find the same number of violators, or more.
Follow the money.
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Balzaccom
Check out our blog and website:
http://sites.google.com/site/backpackthesierra/home
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39801
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 2:01 pm |
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(balzaccom @ Jan. 13 2013, 8:19 am)
QUOTE IF he DOES admit doping...
Note that the Tour de France has already decided that Armstrong's seven titles will not be awarded to anyone--mainly because most of the people who finished behind him have already admitted/been convicted of doping. It's hard for me to be really angry at Armstrong over any of the rest of those guys.
And for everyone who complains about what a dirty sport cycling is...I would just point out that cycling has the toughest PED testing policy of any sport. And yes, they catch lots of violations.
And if the NFL, FIFA, MLB, NHL, etc had similar testing policies, they would find the same number of violators, or more.
Follow the money.
Yet they never detected a banned substance with all the endless testing that a seven time tour champion is subject to. Yet Landis and Contador were detected... And lost their titles for those races where they were found to have violated the rules.
Somewhat of a puzzle all around and probably why as recently as this past fall Contador, not an Armstrong fan by any means, was quoted as feeling Armstrong was being treated unfairly.
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Talus.
Delsolation is my destination
Group: Members
Posts: 1897
Joined: Aug. 2006
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 3:24 pm |
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If you believe the testimony of Frankie and Betsy Andreu (which I do) then Armstrong is guilty of pressuring Trek to dump Lemond's bikes. Plus slandering Frankie and Betsy, which seemed to happen to lots of Lances teammates-people who helped him win.
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“Mountains are not Stadiums where I satisfy my ambition to achieve, they are the cathedrals where I practice my religion.”
― Anatoli Boukreev
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Walkinman
A rainbow
Group: Members
Posts: 6634
Joined: Nov. 2002
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 3:40 pm |
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 13 2013, 10:01 am)
QUOTE
(balzaccom @ Jan. 13 2013, 8:19 am)
QUOTE IF he DOES admit doping...
Note that the Tour de France has already decided that Armstrong's seven titles will not be awarded to anyone--mainly because most of the people who finished behind him have already admitted/been convicted of doping. It's hard for me to be really angry at Armstrong over any of the rest of those guys.
And for everyone who complains about what a dirty sport cycling is...I would just point out that cycling has the toughest PED testing policy of any sport. And yes, they catch lots of violations.
And if the NFL, FIFA, MLB, NHL, etc had similar testing policies, they would find the same number of violators, or more.
Follow the money. Yet they never detected a banned substance with all the endless testing that a seven time tour champion is subject to. Yet Landis and Contador were detected... And lost their titles for those races where they were found to have violated the rules. Somewhat of a puzzle all around and probably why as recently as this past fall Contador, not an Armstrong fan by any means, was quoted as feeling Armstrong was being treated unfairly.
Marion jones and Barry Bonds never tested positive either.
Whether other people cheated is irrelevant - ask any teacher who's graded an exam.
Those who say he didn't ruin others lives,read some of the accounts by those who spoke up and tried to tell their side of the story. He sued people and Ora's over this.
All the little Lance fanboys simply change their tune from "he never doped" to "everyone doped, it's the only way anime could compete".
HSF - I typically find your arguments pretty sound - but the analogy to surgery and medicine is, IMO, absurd. The intention of repairing a torn ACL isn't to improve anyone's athleticism, it's to repair an injury. Just as Lance didn't have chemo so he could win the TDF. The doping? Not so much.
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Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips
"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39801
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 3:56 pm |
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Medical assistance is medical assistance IMHO. The worship of natural competition seems to rule it all out which IS absurd, and my point. The PED issue is rather arbitrary and artificial.. Granted sports competition rules usually are, why three strikes and not four or two? Why aspirin or surgery and not a pharmaceutical which allows faster recovery from competition wear and tear, injury or training?
If RGIII wasn't interested in winning he'd not be getting his LCL repaired.
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| Post Number: 30
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no_granola
minor deity
Group: Members
Posts: 12659
Joined: Dec. 2004
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Posted on: Jan. 13 2013, 4:20 pm |
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We need a congressional committee to review this and then our legislators can preside over the findings. They certainly have nothing better to do than worry about a doper on a bike.
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The difference between people who think for themselves and those that follow the herd is that thinking people aren't afraid of reality.
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