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Topic: Poisoned mice to be cast upon Guam.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 12:55 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If it works, and doesn't really effect other creatures, I would be greatly elated.

http://www.npr.org/blogs....-really

Long live the birds.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 1:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Bombs away takes on a whole new meaning....

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 10:09 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There's gotta be a better way. It seems there would be too much collateral damage to other animals.
I was told that long ago Guam had a rat problem, so they introduced the bushmaster snake. That took care of the rodent problem but the snakes took over, so they introduced the mongoose. That took care of the snakes, but the mongooses became too plentiful and were decimated by rabies. I don't remember where I read this.
It sure seems like a bounty would do the trick, be more ecologically responsible, and provide money to locals.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 12:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I share your concerns Altarboy but in terms of the bounty how would one effectively hunt snakes in the canopy? 2 MILLION of them?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 12:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think the proposed dead mouse methodology is a very interesting experiment at minimum, with the potential to have huge ecological payoffs.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The trip I'm planning for mid-March is with a buddy I haven't seen since he moved to Guam 3+ years ago; now he's moving back. I'll definitely be passing this article on to him to see what he knows about the snake problem and if he's had any first hand encounters with the critters!

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 1:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't dispute the motive, but "experts" don't always think through all possibilities and consequences -- sometimes, we just don't have all the knowledge.  I'm sure "experts" thought introducing Africanized bees to the Americas was a brilliant idea at one time!  Sure, dead mice won't multiply -- but could there still be unforeseen consequences??  Once dropped, you can't there's no retrieving.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 2:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That's why it's described as an experiment, Ben. Experiments produce results that may or may not be expected. Our knowledge of these kinds of things has improved drastically since the old days of bee introductions and such.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 2:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Feb. 23 2013, 11:06 am)
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That's why it's described as an experiment, Ben. Experiments produce results that may or may not be expected. Our knowledge of these kinds of things has improved drastically since the old days of bee introductions and such.

Experimental?  Same same re. Africanized bees.   :;):

Not saying it will fail.  But saying my confidence in "experts" isn't rock solid.  Too many mishaps when humans try to 'manage' Nature.  Note that this episode is an attempt to correct prior errors.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 4:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well yeah thats a lot of snakes. Yikes. I don't mind the occasional snake on the trail-I use a stick to move them off the trail for their own good. Lots of rednecks in this area believe you should kill every snake you see.A snake is the Devils handpuppet, you know.lol
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 4:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nothing is without risk, and I think saving the birds is worth some risk.  At least the poisoned mice can't breed.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 4:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I wonder if there are any other experiments in regards to the effect of acet(hell, tylenol) on any other species?  Is there something dreadful about to happen when those mice begin to drop out of the canopy and onto the ground?  

With the spiders exploding since the demise of the birds, will this be sufficient to return some of the numbers of the birds, or at least those not already extinct?  


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 5:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 23 2013, 11:18 am)
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(Reminiscence @ Feb. 23 2013, 11:06 am)
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That's why it's described as an experiment, Ben. Experiments produce results that may or may not be expected. Our knowledge of these kinds of things has improved drastically since the old days of bee introductions and such.

Experimental?  Same same re. Africanized bees.   :;):

Not saying it will fail.  But saying my confidence in "experts" isn't rock solid.  Too many mishaps when humans try to 'manage' Nature.  Note that this episode is an attempt to correct prior errors.

Actually the "experts" recognized the issue with the African bee strains. The release was contrary to the plan, which had been to contain the queens in a cross breeding experiment.  The release was accidental.

That raises issues of proper precautions but not a careless disregard for the problems the bees had posed to the Western Hemisphere's ecosystem

It's a well known story. More here:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee#section_1

The dead mice have the advantage of being a measured dose: they can slowly introduce some and monitor the result. Unlike a live biological that could breed and sustain a problem should there be one that was unforeseen.

And there are already preliminary works that indicate this approach hold's promise.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlif....122.pdf
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 8:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Feb. 23 2013, 4:08 pm)
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Well yeah thats a lot of snakes. Yikes. I don't mind the occasional snake on the trail-I use a stick to move them off the trail for their own good. Lots of rednecks in this area believe you should kill every snake you see.A snake is the Devils handpuppet, you know.lol

I used to have a boss with a sign on his wall that said, "Seize an opportunity; kill a snake!"

I was never able to wrap my head around that one.

ol-zeke, those are interesting questions that this experiment should be able to help answer. I really can't think of how this could be a bad thing. The way I see it, with the birds in that state already, the place is already an ecological disaster and can use any and the all of the help it can get, no less a potential mass solution such as this.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 9:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And would a wild snake eat a dead mouse? I guess they've already tried that. Surely.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 10:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It would be wrong to do nothing. I would prefer that experts made decisions as opposed to people that knew nothing about the situation.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 10:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Feb. 23 2013, 9:07 pm)
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And would a wild snake eat a dead mouse? I guess they've already tried that. Surely.

The source article says they do....

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 1:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Prelimenary tests have already been completed.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 9:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Too bad they couldn't poison the mice with something that would kill the pigs too.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 9:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Whenever I think I might not like my job, I will have the comfort of remembering that it doesn't involve tying tiny parachutes to dead rodents.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimInMD @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:28 am)
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Whenever I think I might not like my job, I will have the comfort of remembering that it doesn't involve tying tiny parachutes to dead rodents.

I'll try to remember that on my next trying day at work.  :laugh:
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It goes without saying that I think all the mice should be dressed in tiny goggles and flight helmets and the "wreckage" of correct scale size WWII aircraft should be scattered around the island. Future archeologists will spend DECADES figuring that one out.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 11:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

About time they did something.  There have been proposals for doing various things a long time that the illogical minded manage to monkeywrench.  Generations ago such ecological solutions involving planting prey species where invasive alien species were brought in usually was thought through by ignorant stupid small minds.  

The DEAD mouse plan is a good start but how effective that might be is suspect.   If they only release say 10,000 dead mice just as an experiment to see how many are actually eaten and how many snake die, well fine as far as gathering data goes.

A better similar strategy is to release way more live mice that cannot breed than the total number of snakes.  For instance all male mice or even all sterilized males for those that are still afraid.  In fact release 5 million of them all at once.  Enough to make all those snakes fat for a day.   Sure the mice may also affect the island ecology for a year but then they are all going to be dead as well as the snake.    But once they decide to eliminate the snakes, the better strategy is to get ALL of them, else residual snake populations will continue to breed.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 12:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dave Senesac @ Feb. 25 2013, 11:14 am)
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A better similar strategy is to release way more live mice that cannot breed than the total number of snakes.  For instance all male mice or even all sterilized males for those that are still afraid.  In fact release 5 million of them all at once.

That may tip the island over.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 12:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I got a good laugh out of Jim's ideas.

I really wouldn't want the job of determining sex for a few million mice.


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(Ecocentric @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:17 am)
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I got a good laugh out of Jim's ideas.

I really wouldn't want the job of determining sex for a few million mice.

Probably could be done automatically by using a series of one way gates with pheromones  to filter out males and further pheromone gates to filter out any females that managed to get through.   And then after all the males were stuck in one cage together if they put some females in a cage next to it they could probably eliminate any remaining "confused" mice that had no interest in the female cage.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 3:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cgaphiker @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:46 am)
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(JimInMD @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:28 am)
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Whenever I think I might not like my job, I will have the comfort of remembering that it doesn't involve tying tiny parachutes to dead rodents.

I'll try to remember that on my next trying day at work.  :laugh:

Kinda what I was thinking!

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2013, 6:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Feb. 23 2013, 8:09 am)
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There's gotta be a better way. It seems there would be too much collateral damage to other animals.
I was told that long ago Guam had a rat problem, so they introduced the bushmaster snake. That took care of the rodent problem but the snakes took over, so they introduced the mongoose. That took care of the snakes, but the mongooses became too plentiful and were decimated by rabies. I don't remember where I read this.
It sure seems like a bounty would do the trick, be more ecologically responsible, and provide money to locals.

That was just a story that you were told.  And, yes, there have been bounties.  They weren't effective.

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I started my teaching career on Guam, and lived there for 5 years.  And, the snakes were a huge problem even then.  In my 5 years there, I only saw one snake, though.  It was night and I drove over something that felt bumped the car and scared me.  So, I stopped and looked, thinking I hit something more serious (like a kid).  I got out and saw a snake at least 10 feet long behind my car.  I hadn't been driving fast, and was amazed at how big that snake was.  Never saw another snake, even though they were numerous, there were bounties out, and 7 of those 9 birds that are now extinct were already gone.  My only other encounter were power outages that were almost weekly at times.  Snakes would climb power poles, including those huge concrete ones meant to withstand typhoons, hit the power lines, and trigger an outage.  Often times, the power outage would reach the relay station, and go on to the next like the domino effect.  The power company (GPA) would trace the outage to the source and most of the time find a fried snake below the power lines.  Their solution?  Huge cones on all the power poles similar to ones used to keep squirrels off of bird feeders, or for dogs who have had surgery to prevent them from licking or biting the stitches.

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