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Montanalonewolf 
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 6:54 am |
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There's a problem around Bozeman with traps set near popular walking and hiking trails since the requirement is only a minimum of 50' off the trail. There have been a few dogs caught but the owners were there to free them. And while there may be a reporting regulation, it's self-enforced so who knows how many "other" animals are really caught.
I don't like trapping but is legal and I think the minimum-from-trails distance should be at least 1/4 mile to help keep trailhappy Rover from landing in one when sniffing around close to a hiker.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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Tigger
Woods Pouncer
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:59 am |
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(BradMT @ Mar. 05 2013, 5:45 am)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 05 2013, 4:54 am)
QUOTE There's a problem around Bozeman with traps set near popular walking and hiking trails since the requirement is only a minimum of 50' off the trail. There have been a few dogs caught but the owners were there to free them. And while there may be a reporting regulation, it's self-enforced so who knows how many "other" animals are really caught.
I don't like trapping but is legal and I think the minimum-from-trails distance should be at least 1/4 mile to help keep trailhappy Rover from landing in one when sniffing around close to a hiker. Of course if the "victims" obeyed the law and leashed their dogs...
+1
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If I'm going to be lost, in the woods is where I want to be...
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WalksWithBlackflies
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 11:05 am |
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Curious... what's to keep a bushwhacker from stepping on a trap?
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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hikerjer
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 11:08 am |
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As far as I know, at least in my community, dogs are not required to be leashed in all areas especially outside of the city. I know that some areas out side of city limits i.e. national parks and some of the more populoar areas of state parks require leashes but that's generally not the rule.
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"Too often I have met men who boast only of how many miles they've traveled and not of what they've seen." - Louis L'Amour
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mtngrl
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 3:22 pm |
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We have many trails around, that don't require dogs to be leashed, and if a dog responds to voice commands, I am fine with them off leash, in fact it's a joy.
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“He who knows the most, he who knows what sweets and virtues are in the ground, the waters, the plants, the heavens and how to come at these enchantments, is the rich and royal man” -- from Nature, by Ralph Waldo Emerson
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wildlifenate
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 7:01 pm |
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(BradMT @ Mar. 05 2013, 7:45 am)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 05 2013, 4:54 am)
QUOTE There's a problem around Bozeman with traps set near popular walking and hiking trails since the requirement is only a minimum of 50' off the trail. There have been a few dogs caught but the owners were there to free them. And while there may be a reporting regulation, it's self-enforced so who knows how many "other" animals are really caught.
I don't like trapping but is legal and I think the minimum-from-trails distance should be at least 1/4 mile to help keep trailhappy Rover from landing in one when sniffing around close to a hiker. Of course if the "victims" obeyed the law and leashed their dogs...
leash laws for dogs are not universal and ubiquitous. there's variability in that legal landscape, so that's not a statement you can reliably make.
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The GPS Geek
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BradMT
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 9:06 pm |
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Here in Bozeman the local trails are mostly FEDERAL land... the LAW is a leash. Wherever there are wolf traps, I can assure you there's a leash law for dogs. Wolves aren't being trapped in the local neighborhood park.
Un-leashed dogs are a problem, and while I'm fairly neutral on trapping, and certainly don't want to see a hapless pet in a leg-hold trap, there is a certain "poetic justice" here in Montana where selfish dog owners seem to rule the roost.
As to "you" stepping in a wolf trap, the size isn't enough to be a problem to a human-booted foot. MT FWP traps wolves all the time with leg-hold traps to collar, etc. I've examined the traps used, the size isn't an issue for a human foot.
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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| Post Number: 11
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Montanalonewolf
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:11 pm |
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It may be courtesy but there are no leash laws in Hyalite, Bear Canyon (New World Gulch), Mystic Lake/Bozeman Creek or even at the "M" but it's legal to set traps right next to those trails.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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BradMT
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:13 pm |
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Federal Lands all have a leash law...
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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Montanalonewolf
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:30 pm |
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Link it.
I've Googled it and while I can find lots of local and state leash laws, the only federal one I found was for on designated wilderness lands.
I did find that national forests in general do NOT have leash laws except in specific areas like designated campgrounds.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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BradMT
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 12:24 am |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 05 2013, 8:30 pm)
QUOTE Link it.
I've Googled it and while I can find lots of local and state leash laws, the only federal one I found was for on designated wilderness lands.
I did find that national forests in general do NOT have leash laws except in specific areas like designated campgrounds.
Every trailhead in the Bozeman region has a "leash your dog" sign at the trailhead... do you actually hike here?
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailf....l#q007b
In many Wilderness Areas, devleoped campgrounds, picnic areas and day use areas, dogs are required to be on a leash. Most other areas within the National Forests do not require your dog to be on a leash, but they should be under your control at all times. We recommend that you keep your dog on a leash when you are around other forest users, other dogs, or are in bear country.
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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| Post Number: 17
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Montanalonewolf
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 6:38 am |
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(BradMT @ Mar. 05 2013, 10:24 pm)
QUOTE Every trailhead in the Bozeman region has a "leash your dog" sign at the trailhead... do you actually hike here? http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailf....l#q007bIn many Wilderness Areas, devleoped campgrounds, picnic areas and day use areas, dogs are required to be on a leash. Most other areas within the National Forests do not require your dog to be on a leash, but they should be under your control at all times. We recommend that you keep your dog on a leash when you are around other forest users, other dogs, or are in bear country.
OK, I admit I haven't hiked the "M" in awhile but there was no leash law back when I did. The others are "leash free" even if recommended.
Your quote..... that's what I said. And you still haven't produced any evidence that "leashes are required on all federal lands" and in fact stated otherwise.
However, I do agree that a dog should be under full voice control if not leashed but voice control does not mean at heel 100% of the time but only returns when called and does not chase game. Voice control still allows the dog room to wander a bit even offtrail.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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BradMT
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 7:12 am |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 06 2013, 4:38 am)
QUOTE
(BradMT @ Mar. 05 2013, 10:24 pm)
QUOTE Every trailhead in the Bozeman region has a "leash your dog" sign at the trailhead... do you actually hike here? http://www.fs.usda.gov/detailf....l#q007bIn many Wilderness Areas, devleoped campgrounds, picnic areas and day use areas, dogs are required to be on a leash. Most other areas within the National Forests do not require your dog to be on a leash, but they should be under your control at all times. We recommend that you keep your dog on a leash when you are around other forest users, other dogs, or are in bear country. OK, I admit I haven't hiked the "M" in awhile but there was no leash law back when I did. The others are "leash free" even if recommended. Your quote..... that's what I said. And you still haven't produced any evidence that "leashes are required on all federal lands" and in fact stated otherwise. However, I do agree that a dog should be under full voice control if not leashed but voice control does not mean at heel 100% of the time but only returns when called and does not chase game. Voice control still allows the dog room to wander a bit even offtrail.
I've never seen one trailhead anywhere surrounding Bozeman that doesn't have a posted leash law. I never go to The M as I actually enjoy hiking so can't speak to it.
I can't remember the last time I didn't see a leash requirement posted at a trailhead anywhere in Montana along with the various other postings, ie., Bear Country, etc.
But I do tend to spend most of my time hiking in Wilderness Areas.
NO, a leash is NOT required on ALL Federal lands, just all of them I'm aware of around here, and I should have been more clear. After all this conversation is not about Idaho or Wyoming, it's about Montana.
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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hikerjer
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 10:24 am |
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Actaully I believe Brad is correct. I just checked the Custer National Forest website and surprisingly, to me at least, under the rules section they discourage taking your dog on trails but if you do they require it to be on a "short lease". No signs at trai head though. At least none that I'm aware of and I hike there a lot. Got to be one of the most widely and unenforced laws in our national forests. Seems a little extreme to me but there it is.
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"Too often I have met men who boast only of how many miles they've traveled and not of what they've seen." - Louis L'Amour
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| Post Number: 22
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pass-thru
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 1:34 pm |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 8:32 am)
QUOTE
(BradMT @ Mar. 05 2013, 9:06 pm)
QUOTE As to "you" stepping in a wolf trap, the size isn't enough to be a problem to a human-booted foot. MT FWP traps wolves all the time with leg-hold traps to collar, etc. I've examined the traps used, the size isn't an issue for a human foot. What about a bear trap? Granted, I haven't heard of any such injuries... just curious if a trap would be obvious to a human.
trap sizes are regulated by law, I'm not aware of any state that allows footholds larger than a wolf trap
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| Post Number: 23
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pass-thru
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 1:40 pm |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 06 2013, 6:46 am)
QUOTE
(pass-thru @ Mar. 05 2013, 10:01 pm)
QUOTE Trappers contribute to balanced disease free furbearing population, which is crucial to balance in the overall ecosystem. Rover bounces around, chases wildlife, maybe runs down and kills deer and fawns, and otherwise serves no legitmate purpose off a leash. Seems like a no brainer. Really? Wow. I'm astounded that ONLY diseaaed animals step in your traps.
diseases such as mange, rabies and distemper are communicable and spread like wildfire through areas overpopulated by furbearers. By helping to keep furbearer populations at a sustainable level, trapping mitigates spread of disease in the first place.
But I do catch my share of mangy coyotes and prevent them from further contaminating the population.
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Sanenomore
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 5:59 pm |
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Because we have limited the environments of many animals I can see the need for population control hunting, but if the methods used are catching/killing as many wrong animals as they are targeted animals then those methods should not be legal.
Hunting was a matter of survival for most of human history, how we have used that to justify sport killing is beyond me. Meat is abundant an less expensive to buy from the supermarket than it is to purchase the gear and permits to hunt it. Outside of population control of certain species needed do to our destruction of their natural environment I am 100% against sport killing.
Obviously this is my opinion, and I do own several guns but they are for protection against the only real predatory threat I face and that is human criminals.
P.S. Leash your dang dog 
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Pathfinder1
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 6:35 pm |
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Hi...
The State of Maine allows trapping of black bears...but the last time I checked, Maine was quite a distance from MT. They have some strict bear trapping rules there, too, including the posting of signs regarding where bear traps are set.
As a former professional trapper, I have caught exactly TWO dogs in steel traps during the years that I trapped. One was a hound that I thought I would never get released, but I succeeded (it left in good shape...just a sore paw).
The other dog was a huge, pure white Newfie. I was surprised to find it just calmly lying there. I approached it very cautiously, to be met with a wagging tail...!! I easily released it, and...would you believe...it wouldn't leave me... it just wanted to follow me around...!! I was quite saddened that I had to chase it off several times before it left for other areas.
Trapping does serve other purposes, too. Thanks to the women (and men) in China, Russia and the U.S., our fur has been in extremely high demand. The ladies (and men) must have their fur coats, you know.
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pass-thru
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 6:43 pm |
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Pathfinder.....Maine does not allow foothold traps, only foot snares.
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Sanenomore
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:42 am |
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(pass-thru @ Mar. 06 2013, 6:27 pm)
QUOTE
(Sanenomore @ Mar. 06 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE Meat is abundant an less expensive to buy from the supermarket than it is to purchase the gear and permits to hunt it. Outside of population control of certain species needed do to our destruction of their natural environment I am 100% against sport killing. 1. ethically, I prefer wild meat over farm raised meat. It should be apparent which is more humane and better for the environment 2. what do you mean by "sport killing." Hunting and trapping are not just about "killing." It's not bloodsport for the purpose of inflicting pain and death. I don't know any hunters with that mentality. So many people are so far removed from the actual traditions this country was founded on, ie hunting, trapping, gardening and sustenance living, that unfortunately perceptions are distorted and no longer based in reality.
1. Ethical treatment of farm animals is something I think is very important. I even raise my own chickens because many of the commercial farming practises that are common are cruel. I see this as a separate issue not at all related to sport killing.
2. What I mean by sport killing is the hobby of killing wild animals you do not need for food and thus do not need to kill.
3. I specifically mentioned the tradition of hunting. It was not done for traditions sake it was done to provide food to keep people from starving. This is no longer a needed practise in most countries. People don't "go hunting" today because they would otherwise starve, they go hunting because they enjoy doing it, thus its a hobby or sport that results in the unnecessary killing of a wild animal.
Just because they did something in the past doesn't justify doing it now when the original reason for it is no longer valid, even if you tag it with the term "tradition".
Gardening and sustanance living are totally different issues your trying to force into the same mold as killing for sport.
I am not an eco-nut who is trying to force my opinion on you and I will not be found in any protest rallies or PETA meetings, but I feel hunting wild animals should only be legal for populaton control of certain species. My best friend loves to hunt and totally diagrees with me, but we can agree to disagree. Right now sport killing is legal so your free to kill away. Should it ever come to a vote I will vote to eliminate it and he will vote to keep it, but otherwise we go on about our lives.
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| Post Number: 30
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BradMT
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 8:16 am |
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You should do a little study on the meat industry in America... you know, the stuff YOU buy in the grocery store. Not only is it unhealthy chemicalized junk, but it could be argued most of it is raised inhumanely.
An animal, being chemical free and a healthier quality of meat, living its life freely and meeting its end suddenly and unexpectedly (without the suffering of a possible prolonged death in the wild) and providing sustenance to the top predator is unethical?
As one that participates in the agri-industrial killing complex you may want to consider removing the LOG in your eye.
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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