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Reminiscence 
Group: Members
Posts: 3532
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 6:50 pm |
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No citation necessary.
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When you are out West
Please, at my behest
Since you are Nature's guest
Do something to help the rest:
Dismantle a fire ring;
Take a stone and give a swing.
You may find that it will bring
A lift of goodness 'neath your wing.
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| Post Number: 2
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JimInMD
Group: Members
Posts: 3112
Joined: Feb. 2011
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 6:53 pm |
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You're kinder than I. I put a similar thread in TPA.
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Checking out for a while, find me on FB.
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| Post Number: 3
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QCHIKER
Group: Members
Posts: 1728
Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 6:56 pm |
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I wonder who'll take over for him.
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Raznation
Why surf when you can make waves!
Group: Members
Posts: 23533
Joined: Sep. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 6:57 am |
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CITGO has lowered their flags (American, state, and company) to half staff to recognize his passing.
People are upset about this.
CITGO is owned by.....(guess which country).
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| Post Number: 7
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JimInMD
Group: Members
Posts: 3112
Joined: Feb. 2011
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:18 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 11:59 am)
QUOTE
(Raznation @ Mar. 07 2013, 3:57 am)
QUOTE CITGO has lowered their flags (American, state, and company) to half staff to recognize his passing.
People are upset about this.
CITGO is owned by.....(guess which country). CITGO is a Venezuelan company. The majority of Venezuelans supported their late president. And in this period of mourning, it is altogether fitting and appropriate to lower the flag as a sign of national mourning. Why are people here upset?? When an American president dies or even when tragedy hits -- American government offices as well as American companies the world over will lower the American flag as a mark of respect and mourning. I've personally witnessed this time and time again when growing up in Taiwan. No locals were upset that I ever knew of. Are we really this provincial? Or is it because this time, international -- including American -- oil companies didn't get everything they wanted? So we hate and we scoff? I am not a supporter of Chavez' economic policies. But Venezuela is our neighbor and they are in mourning. We can't be this petty as a people, can we?
Would an American company in Taiwan have flown the flag of Taiwan? Would they have lowered it if an American president died?
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Checking out for a while, find me on FB.
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| Post Number: 9
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eyebp
Moderator
Group: Members
Posts: 9622
Joined: Dec. 2007
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:30 pm |
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I support their right top do it but now that I have that information I will not be shopping there anymore.
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Of all the ridiculous things to micromanage. Even for a lunatic megalomaniac.
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| Post Number: 10
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:53 pm |
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(JimInMD @ Mar. 07 2013, 9:18 am)
QUOTE
(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 11:59 am)
QUOTE
(Raznation @ Mar. 07 2013, 3:57 am)
QUOTE CITGO has lowered their flags (American, state, and company) to half staff to recognize his passing.
People are upset about this.
CITGO is owned by.....(guess which country). CITGO is a Venezuelan company. The majority of Venezuelans supported their late president. And in this period of mourning, it is altogether fitting and appropriate to lower the flag as a sign of national mourning. Why are people here upset?? When an American president dies or even when tragedy hits -- American government offices as well as American companies the world over will lower the American flag as a mark of respect and mourning. I've personally witnessed this time and time again when growing up in Taiwan. No locals were upset that I ever knew of. Are we really this provincial? Or is it because this time, international -- including American -- oil companies didn't get everything they wanted? So we hate and we scoff? I am not a supporter of Chavez' economic policies. But Venezuela is our neighbor and they are in mourning. We can't be this petty as a people, can we? Would an American company in Taiwan have flown the flag of Taiwan? Would they have lowered it if an American president died?
I don't recall any American company or my own American school flying just the American flag and not the flag of the host country. That would have been rude. So if flags were flown, then usually both. And also yes, if lowered on major, somber occasions, then both flags were lowered. Indeed, I don't ever recall -- and it would look rather strange -- to lower one but not the other.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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| Post Number: 11
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
Group: Members
Posts: 10781
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:08 pm |
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However, if CITGO was only flying the American flag, a State flag like California or Texas, and a company banner, why would they lower the American flag? or even the State flag? Any foreign company doing business in the US, I could see why they might fly the flag of the owner nation, but in this case CITGO thought better of it. There have been frictions between the 2 nations, even if it was mostly talking points. I totally understand where Raz was coming from, and if Ben doesn't then he is the one who needs to stop and think before posting an opinion that ridicules.
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:21 pm |
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My view -- when an American president died -- no one in Taiwan was so petty as to complain about lowering the flag -- even though the US under Carter stabbed Taiwan in the back by unilaterally revoking a mutual defense pact!!
So here, we have Venezuela merely refusing to follow all the terms dictated by American oil companies. And for that, folks support uncivilized behavior and even boycotts?
If people need to think here -- they should think about their own arrogance!!
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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| Post Number: 13
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EastieTrekker
Group: Members
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mar. 2012
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:27 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:21 pm)
QUOTE My view -- when an American president died -- no one in Taiwan was so petty as to complain about lowering the flag -- even though the US under Carter stabbed Taiwan in the back by unilaterally revoking a mutual defense pact!!
So here, we have Venezuela merely refusing to follow all the terms dictated by American oil companies. And for that, folks support uncivilized behavior and even boycotts?
If people need to think here -- they should think about their own arrogance!!
Ben to be fair here - one the one hand you say "no one in Taiwan" complained about the lowering of the flag. But you couldn't possibly know that since I would assume your sample size to be pretty small, in comparison to the total population of Taiwan.
On the other hand, you easily declare that Americans, collectively, abhor the thought of lowering flags for the death of a foreign president. Yet again, your sample size is very small, so how could you possibly know the thoughts/feelings of all Americans.
In either case you're making sweeping generalizations, generalizations that you often implore other folks not to make - because a country's citizens and it's official position in the gov't/media can be and are often very different.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice. 
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| Post Number: 14
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:28 pm |
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(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 07 2013, 10:27 am)
QUOTE
(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:21 pm)
QUOTE My view -- when an American president died -- no one in Taiwan was so petty as to complain about lowering the flag -- even though the US under Carter stabbed Taiwan in the back by unilaterally revoking a mutual defense pact!!
So here, we have Venezuela merely refusing to follow all the terms dictated by American oil companies. And for that, folks support uncivilized behavior and even boycotts?
If people need to think here -- they should think about their own arrogance!! Ben to be fair here - one the one hand you say "no one in Taiwan" complained about the lowering of the flag. But you couldn't possibly know that since I would assume your sample size to be pretty small, in comparison to the total population of Taiwan. On the other hand, you easily declare that Americans, collectively, abhor the thought of lowering flags for the death of a foreign president. Yet again, your sample size is very small, so how could you possibly know the thoughts/feelings of all Americans. In either case you're making sweeping generalizations, generalizations that you often implore other folks not to make - because a country's citizens and it's official position in the gov't/media can be and are often very different.
We would be talking about media complaints -- public in nature.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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| Post Number: 15
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:34 pm |
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Back in late 1978 -- two of my classmates drank and drove and got themselves killed. Our small high school of 600 was devastated. 'Somebody' lowered the flags (Taiwan and US) as signs of mourning. There was no complaint from anyone that we knew of about unilaterally lowering Taiwan's flag!!
I think a very big part of this thread is a petty and misguided hatred toward Venezuela because they stopped behaving as our puppet. See the boycott post above.
How sad, that we won't tolerate Venezuela (just read the mocking and all here and in the media) -- and yet, we not only tolerate, but fully support Saudi Arabia -- turning a blind eye to things that we supposedly hold dear. Women are forbidden to drive a car over there. Hey, no problem, just keep the oil coming and don't charge us so much!
My view? Given the patchy and hypocritically selective "enforcement" of our supposed ideals -- we really should stop and let each society do its own thing -- peaceably. Just like how we insist on debating and building our own society our own way. Is that too much to ask, America?
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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EastieTrekker
Group: Members
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mar. 2012
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:37 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:28 pm)
QUOTE
(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 07 2013, 10:27 am)
QUOTE
(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:21 pm)
QUOTE My view -- when an American president died -- no one in Taiwan was so petty as to complain about lowering the flag -- even though the US under Carter stabbed Taiwan in the back by unilaterally revoking a mutual defense pact!!
So here, we have Venezuela merely refusing to follow all the terms dictated by American oil companies. And for that, folks support uncivilized behavior and even boycotts?
If people need to think here -- they should think about their own arrogance!! Ben to be fair here - one the one hand you say "no one in Taiwan" complained about the lowering of the flag. But you couldn't possibly know that since I would assume your sample size to be pretty small, in comparison to the total population of Taiwan. On the other hand, you easily declare that Americans, collectively, abhor the thought of lowering flags for the death of a foreign president. Yet again, your sample size is very small, so how could you possibly know the thoughts/feelings of all Americans. In either case you're making sweeping generalizations, generalizations that you often implore other folks not to make - because a country's citizens and it's official position in the gov't/media can be and are often very different. We would be talking about media complaints -- public in nature.
That we are - but you're deflecting just a little bit, right?
I'm not trying to put you in a corner, in terms of the argument, but do you really feel our media (or the media of any country) is ALWAYS a fair representation of the people? I certainly don't. In fact I've heard you complain about the bias of American media vs other countries. So why, all of a sudden, is American media an absolutely accurate portrayal of we, the citizens of the US?
You know, I really admire all the places in the world you've seen. It has has given you knowledge and perspective that I may never get the opportunity to have. However, in my career I have been fortunate enough to travel all over our own country to all the small cities and towns, that no one ever bothers to visit.
To me, this is the heart of our country. I have met some of the sweetest, most caring folks in my life. People exceeding even the charity and manners of Boston (okay a little sarcasm there).
I understand the point you are trying to make, and in some ways, as the media portrays our country as a whole, yes we can be a bit abrasive and unforgiving. But you can't possibly, dismiss the millions and millions in this country who are open, honest, caring, and generous. The type of folk to give you a bed when you have none. These people exist in this country, and they're no small minority.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.
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| Post Number: 17
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:40 pm |
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Eastie:
We are in agreement that our media do not provide us with an accurate perspective. My responses about arrogance and pettiness were directed to some of the members here. Sad.
Read my post #15. Put it in the context that 1978 was merely a few months after Carter betrayed Taiwan. And still, nobody there decried about our school's lowering the Taiwan (and US) flags to mourn our dead classmates.
I think we as a nation act "extra mean" to countries that dare defy us. You know, like Cuba. I suppose if we are arrogant enough to punish Cuba for 60+ years -- why should we be suddenly 'generous' and let the disobedient Venezuelans lower our flag, eh?
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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EastieTrekker
Group: Members
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mar. 2012
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:48 pm |
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Understood.
Interestingly, and perhaps news to folks not from this part of the country (and worth mentioning here), is that Joe Kennedy (yes, those Kennedy's) has been partnering with Citgo (picture that big Citgo sign near Fenway Park) and Venezuela to provide free heating oil to MANY families in Massachusetts who cannot afford to keep their homes heated throughout the winter. I personally do not know of similar programs being administered by other oil companies (but perhaps there are and I just don't know about them).
Were there other motives behind this? Publicity for Joe and maybe even the reputation of Citgo/Venezuela? Yeah, maybe. But for those folks who would have gone to bed cold, I bet they surely appreciate the help.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.
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| Post Number: 19
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:50 pm |
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I have a pretty good hunch that if CITGO had flown the Venezuelan flag (like many American establishments overseas routinely fly Old Glory) -- people here would bitch about that too!
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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| Post Number: 20
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 2:22 pm |
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A reading of the United States Flag Code:
" By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff
upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government
and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of
respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other
officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at
half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in
accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent
with law."
My read is that our founding fathers intended the display of our flag at half staff to be one of utmost seriousness -- thus by order of the President -- in observance of the deaths of 'principal figures' of the federal government -- and state governors.
But the code also gives (purposely so in my view) leeway to similarly observe the deaths of "other officials and foreign dignatories"-- and thus the purposely 'vague' language "in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law".
The death of a foreign head of state is certainly an event of magnitude. And unless Texas has an ordinance specifically prohibiting the display of our flags at half mast in regards to the death of Hugo Chavez -- then I say it is both lawful and proper for CITGO to do as it did.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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WalksWithBlackflies
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Group: Members
Posts: 8742
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 2:34 pm |
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I tried to keep up-to-date on flying my flag according to Presidential, State, or local decrees. I found I was flying it at half-mast more than half the time, so I don't even bother anymore.
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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EastieTrekker
Group: Members
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mar. 2012
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 2:41 pm |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 07 2013, 2:34 pm)
QUOTE I tried to keep up-to-date on flying my flag according to Presidential, State, or local decrees. I found I was flying it at half-mast more than half the time, so I don't even bother anymore.
Aside from the topic at hand, I always felt that flying the flag at half-mast should be reserved for very solemn occasions. Meanwhile, the big flagpole at the end of my block seems to be flown at half-mast at least once a week.
So much so, that I question if the guy in charge just does it on a whim.
I would agree that something on this scale would qualify, but my take is that when the flag is flown at half-mast that often, it sort of lessens the symbolism.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.
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| Post Number: 24
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23907
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 3:19 pm |
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(ol-zeke @ Mar. 07 2013, 10:08 am)
QUOTE However, if CITGO was only flying the American flag, a State flag like California or Texas, and a company banner, why would they lower the American flag? or even the State flag? Any foreign company doing business in the US, I could see why they might fly the flag of the owner nation, but in this case CITGO thought better of it. There have been frictions between the 2 nations, even if it was mostly talking points. I totally understand where Raz was coming from, and if Ben doesn't then he is the one who needs to stop and think before posting an opinion that ridicules.
Read my post #20 -- the US Flag Code -- and tell us how you totally understand... Yes, there are frictions between the two countries... but I thought we stood for freedom and respect for differing opinions and all that? And of course, we too have the right to be critical, but this is a period of mourning for our neighbor, for pete's sake! If this didn't invite ridicule, little else would.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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| Post Number: 25
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RedDoug
Group: Members
Posts: 9160
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 6:58 pm |
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Chavez died with a personal fortune of over 2 BILLION dollars. Probably US dollars.
Typical leftist leader.
Drudge is reporting that the body will be on permenant display. No comment on that.
I don't care for Citgo gas either.
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Everything is in Walking Distance
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| Post Number: 26
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Reminiscence
Group: Members
Posts: 3532
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 8:58 pm |
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It's just a flag. Weep weep weep. It is a symbol of artificially-drawn boundaries. In the case of America, a history of genocide to establish those boundaries is deserving of little respect either way. It's just a flag.
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When you are out West
Please, at my behest
Since you are Nature's guest
Do something to help the rest:
Dismantle a fire ring;
Take a stone and give a swing.
You may find that it will bring
A lift of goodness 'neath your wing.
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| Post Number: 27
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| Post Number: 28
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RedDoug
Group: Members
Posts: 9160
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 9:18 pm |
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Chavez to lie in state just like his infamous hero:
http://www.foxnews.com/world....display
good riddens.
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Everything is in Walking Distance
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| Post Number: 30
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RedDoug
Group: Members
Posts: 9160
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 9:53 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 9:28 pm)
QUOTE
(RedDoug @ Mar. 07 2013, 8:58 pm)
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A history of genocide? Where did you get that stuff from?
Ignorance is the enemy of progress. And there is way too much ignorance right here! Did you sleep through your entire American History class, RD?
How insulting!!
Of course I did not sleep through history classes and I have taken a lot of them- and I have read as much history as you, I am sure.
I did not take history classes from leftist professors who saw everyone from Columbus to Reagan the devil incarnate and the US as the dark side of the USSR.
I do not believe in a "prefect" US but I do believe the entire world is better with the US in it and active.
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Everything is in Walking Distance
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
