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Topic: What's that saying? "Measure twice, cut once"< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 1:46 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


Published March 25, 2013
Associated Press

MOAB, Utah –  A 22-year-old Utah man was killed while swinging from a rock arch in a stunt made popular by YouTube.




Sheriff's Lt. Kim Neal tells The Salt Lake Tribune the length of rope from the arch was miscalculated and sent Stocking swinging into the ground as he went under the red sandstone formation.


Source.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 1:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Brings to mind another phrase as well, "Natural selection"...

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 4:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Measure twice, cut once:

"I don't understand it--I cut that board three times already, and it's still too short!"

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 5:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Good place to try a sandbag first.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 5:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have a theory that this will be responsible for many deaths, broken bones, etc.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 5:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While I mourn the loss of a life, another board that I moderate has an expression that seems appropriate here,

"When you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes."


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(TravisNWood @ Mar. 25 2013, 3:10 pm)
QUOTE
Good place to try a sandbag first.

+1.  Given the effort it takes to set the ropes for something like that up, I'm a little surprised that no one bothered to check the length before doing this.

Like Jim, I do feel sorry for the families, but the guy himself?  Meh.  May he rest in peace.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 5:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"I have a theory that this will be responsible for many deaths, broken bones, etc."

yes, but what a way to Go!
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 6:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It could be the measurements were correct, but no one figured in the stretching of the rope. With some ropes over certain distances, this can be significant. More than enough to cause you to impact the ground.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 6:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(treelinebackpacker @ Mar. 25 2013, 4:00 pm)
QUOTE
It could be the measurements were correct, but no one figured in the stretching of the rope. With some ropes over certain distances, this can be significant. More than enough to cause you to impact the ground.

Maybe.  But rope stretch is a well-known factor, especially for anyone who's ever climbed with a dynamic rope (stretch is built in for a reason).  It'd be forehead-slapping stupid to use a dynamic rope for something like this.  That's what static rope is made for (well, it's made for hauling and rappelling, but you get the point).

If that were actually the case, everyone involved--from the people helping with the setup to the person doing the swinging--would be culpable IMO, and someone should've caught that.  But, that's all conjecture, we don't know.  All we know is some guy misjudged the distance (regardless of the type of rope) and hit the ground, fatally, with no one to blame but themselves.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 9:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Everything you said was true,
but considering they didn't test it in some way other than throwing themselves off the thing...I doubt they knew the differences in rope types.
There's no indication that the user was any type of rock climber or similar who would have any real knowledge of rope.
But then again, could be bad math.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 9:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's just sad, period. Bad decision or not, that's tragic. If that ever happened to your child, I doubt some of you would be discussing this in the same manner.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 10:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 25 2013, 5:27 pm)
QUOTE
Maybe.  But rope stretch is a well-known factor, especially for anyone who's ever climbed with a dynamic rope (stretch is built in for a reason).  It'd be forehead-slapping stupid to use a dynamic rope for something like this.  That's what static rope is made for (well, it's made for hauling and rappelling, but you get the point).

They're diving off an arch, tied off on a rope.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 10:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Owen571 @ Mar. 25 2013, 8:22 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 25 2013, 5:27 pm)
QUOTE
Maybe.  But rope stretch is a well-known factor, especially for anyone who's ever climbed with a dynamic rope (stretch is built in for a reason).  It'd be forehead-slapping stupid to use a dynamic rope for something like this.  That's what static rope is made for (well, it's made for hauling and rappelling, but you get the point).

They're diving off an arch, tied off on a rope.

Right. I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I just noted there.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 10:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Owen571 @ Mar. 25 2013, 8:22 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 25 2013, 5:27 pm)
QUOTE
Maybe.  But rope stretch is a well-known factor, especially for anyone who's ever climbed with a dynamic rope (stretch is built in for a reason).  It'd be forehead-slapping stupid to use a dynamic rope for something like this.  That's what static rope is made for (well, it's made for hauling and rappelling, but you get the point).

They're diving off an arch, tied off on a rope.

Not really diving. They are jumping into a swing under the arch.

Example:



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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 10:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Always feel sad for the parents when tragedy strikes the young...  :(

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 11:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 25 2013, 9:31 pm)
QUOTE

(Owen571 @ Mar. 25 2013, 8:22 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 25 2013, 5:27 pm)
QUOTE
Maybe.  But rope stretch is a well-known factor, especially for anyone who's ever climbed with a dynamic rope (stretch is built in for a reason).  It'd be forehead-slapping stupid to use a dynamic rope for something like this.  That's what static rope is made for (well, it's made for hauling and rappelling, but you get the point).

They're diving off an arch, tied off on a rope.

Right. I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I just noted there.

Maybe you need to read it again, then.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 11:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Owen571 @ Mar. 25 2013, 11:33 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 25 2013, 9:31 pm)
QUOTE

(Owen571 @ Mar. 25 2013, 8:22 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 25 2013, 5:27 pm)
QUOTE
Maybe.  But rope stretch is a well-known factor, especially for anyone who's ever climbed with a dynamic rope (stretch is built in for a reason).  It'd be forehead-slapping stupid to use a dynamic rope for something like this.  That's what static rope is made for (well, it's made for hauling and rappelling, but you get the point).

They're diving off an arch, tied off on a rope.

Right. I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I just noted there.

Maybe you need to read it again, then.

Y'all simmer down.   :p  

From what I remember, GBH has a good bit of experience rapping and hauling, but he might not know that yes, forehead-slapping stupid climbers like me use dynamic rope where one expects to take a big fall like this. The stretch cushions it so you don't tear your kidneys apart. Doing this kind of jump onto a static rope would be just about as likely to kill you as cratering at the bottom.  :D

RIP whoever this kid was. I've made a similar mistake and lived to tell about it, so for me it's always a sobering occurrence.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 25 2013, 11:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not that it makes sense to jump off an arch tied to the end of any rope, but if you have the choice, it'd better be a dynamic rope.

Dynamic ropes absorb the energy of a dynamic fall (or bone-headed leap off a cliff) and keep other components--the harness, the anchor, the special anatomical parts of the jumper--from failing. Static ropes are meant for static loads: long controlled rappels, long mechanical ascents (jumaring), and hauling loads--not for falling on.

I would say dynamic ropes might help prevent brain damage from sudden deceleration, but in this case it would have to be "help prevent any additional brain damage (assuming, of course . . .)"


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 12:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Where is the sudden jerk in this maneuver that some of you seem so concerned about? You seem to be presuming that the initial "fall" is with a loose rope that suddenly jerks when becoming tight. But as the video shows repeatedly, the initial jump is with tight rope so that the swing is continuous from the initial running leap. No jerk is necessary. So if done right, it can be done with a static rope.

It's a swing, not a bungee jump.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 12:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oops. Tell ya the truth, I didn't watch the video--my bad. The climbing forums and YouTube have been full of helmet-cam videos of people leaping off cliffs with scores or hundreds of feet of slack rope--sometimes to their imminent and dramatic demise. I assumed this one was like the others I've seen. You're right--a swing on a taut line free of slack probably could be easily done on a static line.

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(TravisNWood @ Mar. 26 2013, 12:10 am)
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Where is the sudden jerk . . . ?

LOL, I guess that makes me "the sudden jerk" for not watching the video before commenting.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 12:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(waterdog @ Mar. 25 2013, 10:44 pm)
QUOTE

(TravisNWood @ Mar. 26 2013, 12:10 am)
QUOTE
Where is the sudden jerk . . . ?

LOL, I guess that makes me "the sudden jerk" for not watching the video before commenting.

Not at all. No more than it makes me a "swinger."  Heh, heh.

But thanks for watching the video.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 12:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes it is sad for all concerned, especially the fellow who died.  

The article only summerizes the accident by stating he "miscalculated" the length of rope.  Did he miscalculate the height of the arch or the length f rope he used?  In other words, did he think the arch was higher than it was or did he know the correct height but mistakenly measured out too much rope?  Or something else.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 12:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

He f**ked up--end result's the same.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TravisNWood @ Mar. 26 2013, 12:10 am)
QUOTE
Where is the sudden jerk in this maneuver that some of you seem so concerned about? You seem to be presuming that the initial "fall" is with a loose rope that suddenly jerks when becoming tight. But as the video shows repeatedly, the initial jump is with tight rope so that the swing is continuous from the initial running leap. No jerk is necessary. So if done right, it can be done with a static rope.

It's a swing, not a bungee jump.

I watched it.  :)
They're on dynamic, and it'd be a rough ride on static. It's not a hundred foot freefall, but it's also not a taut line by any means. Dropping a few feet on a static rope in a harness can do some really significant damage, and some of those kids are getting a free fall of much more than that.

(That video's hilarious...you can still see which of those kids have a healthy hesitation running off the side of the arch.) But, yeah, discussing gear characteristics wasn't on the original point of the thread, so I will now bow out before my...um...somewhat-pedantic nature gets me in more trouble.  :;):
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(waterdog @ Mar. 25 2013, 10:44 pm)
QUOTE

(TravisNWood @ Mar. 26 2013, 12:10 am)
QUOTE
Where is the sudden jerk . . . ?

LOL, I guess that makes me "the sudden jerk" for not watching the video before commenting.

Actually, it wasn't all that sudden... something we all had known for a while...   :p  :p  :p


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(fifeplayer @ Mar. 25 2013, 11:18 pm)
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. . . Dropping a few feet on a static rope in a harness can do some really significant damage, and some of those kids are getting a free fall of much more than that. . . .

Where do you see that in the video? Show me. Dropping into a swing motion does not present anything near the stopping force of a sudden vertical drop. There is no sudden jerk anywhere near that.


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(TravisNWood @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:36 am)
QUOTE

(fifeplayer @ Mar. 25 2013, 11:18 pm)
QUOTE
. . . Dropping a few feet on a static rope in a harness can do some really significant damage, and some of those kids are getting a free fall of much more than that. . . .

Where do you see that in the video? Show me. Dropping into a swing motion does not present anything near the stopping force of a sudden vertical drop. There is no sudden jerk anywhere near that.

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(fifeplayer @ Mar. 26 2013, 12:05 am)
QUOTE

(TravisNWood @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:36 am)
QUOTE

(fifeplayer @ Mar. 25 2013, 11:18 pm)
QUOTE
. . . Dropping a few feet on a static rope in a harness can do some really significant damage, and some of those kids are getting a free fall of much more than that. . . .

Where do you see that in the video? Show me. Dropping into a swing motion does not present anything near the stopping force of a sudden vertical drop. There is no sudden jerk anywhere near that.

(Video: Behind the Scenes)

So you didn't answer the question but posted a video that proves my point. Thanks. There is nothing in either video to correspond to your description of a fall abruptly stopped by a sudden jerk. Such directly opposing forces are simply not present in the physics of a pendulum.


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