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Topic: Calling Edward Abbey fans., Anti-wolf agenda.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 10:41 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Look here. Look below. This is a billboard I saw in far southwestern New Mexico, one which a few of you here may have seen before in person. Needless to say, I think the Mexican wolf deserves to share at least a little part of that 3.3+ million acre Gila National Forest and greater region, don't you? Does such a ubiquitous monoculture such as cattle and their tenders really deserve every acre?



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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 10:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Methinks people will always look after their own interests first.  Are there farms or ranches nearby?  Makes me wonder just why our federal, state, local governments can buy up more land and "seal" them off as true nature reserves??

If money is short (and of course money is short) -- I would even support a lottery at the appropriate level(s) to raise the funds to acquire land...


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 10:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The wolves have the land already. And there are so few of them. Which makes this all the more ridiculous.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 10:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 10:41 pm)
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Does such a ubiquitous monoculture such as cattle and their tenders really deserve every acre?


Of course not.  We have the same anti-wolf culture here in Montana but it's mostly with ranchers and a segment of the hunting population.  However, I believe the majority of the state's population favors having a viable wolf population.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 10:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 7:50 pm)
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The wolves have the land already. And there are so few of them. Which makes this all the more ridiculous.

Hate to point out that the exact same could be said of Native Americans -- fellow human beings no less -- but that hardly slowed down our encroachment back then!  What's wolves?

The thing to do is to put those lands squarely in public (government) hands.  If government authority sells land -- then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 10:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

America suffers from a predator deficiency exacerbated by a simultaneous pathological intolerance, hatred and fear of them.

But, backpacking in the Sierras should would be different if we still had grizzlies, wouldn't it? Our summertime hikes wouldn't be the carefree idyllic strolls in the mountains that we now enjoy.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 10:56 pm)
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(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 7:50 pm)
QUOTE
The wolves have the land already. And there are so few of them. Which makes this all the more ridiculous.

Hate to point out that the exact same could be said of Native Americans -- fellow human beings no less -- but that hardly slowed down our encroachment back then!  What's wolves?

The thing to do is to put those lands squarely in public (government) hands.  If government authority sells land -- then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

Do you see any anti-Native American signs, essentially advocating their slaughter, "they" being an organism that numbers in the dozens?

The notion that people own land in the first place must be challenged first before subscribing to the last part of your statement.




I am trying to understand this culture and what feeds it. Consider it an anthropological endeavor.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(waterdog @ Mar. 31 2013, 10:58 pm)
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America suffers from a predator deficiency exacerbated by a simultaneous pathological intolerance, hatred and fear of them.

But, backpacking in the Sierras should would be different if we still had grizzlies, wouldn't it? Our summertime hikes wouldn't be the carefree idyllic strolls in the mountains that we now enjoy.

"Carefree idyllic strolls" aren't my style anyway.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:08 pm)
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"Carefree idyllic strolls" aren't my style anyway.

I guess it depends on what it takes for you to get worked up.

For some of us, it takes more than it does for others to get worried about much in the mountains.

But a grizz usually does it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A grizz is about it. That's the only time I carry bear spray. Might carry something in lion/tiger habitat as well, but I haven't reached that point yet.


African lions, that is. Our Felis here in North America don't cause me any minutes of lost sleep, though I've felt their presence a few times.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 10:56 pm)
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then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

This thread probably belongs in TPA.

Private landowners, contrary to the enshrined beliefs of the far right, do not hold carte blanche over what they can do on private property. They just know the hot buttons, and how to push 'em.

There are all kinds of restrictions on keeping "their land productive" for the greater good. No testing of nuclear weapons, no dumping of toxics, no slavery enterprises, no construction in a floodplain without proper permits, and taking of fish and game must be done in compliance with existing state and federal regulations--even if it's your own land--just to name a few.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:18 pm)
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A grizz is about it. That's the only time I carry bear spray. Might carry something in lion/tiger habitat as well, but I haven't reached that point yet.


African lions, that is. Our Felis here in North America don't cause me any minutes of lost sleep, though I've felt their presence a few times.

Then it sounds as if you view your hikes as pretty carefree, even though that's "not your style."

What am I missing?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 8:05 pm)
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Do you see any anti-Native American signs, essentially advocating their slaughter, "they" being an organism that numbers in the dozens?

The notion that people own land in the first place must be challenged first before subscribing to the last part of your statement.

I am trying to understand this culture and what feeds it. Consider it an anthropological endeavor.

Who was it who said, "A good Indian is a dead Indian"?  Our land encroachment was unstoppable.

Private land ownership has been so ingrained in our culture for so long -- I don't think challenging it is the most effective way to create safe space for wolves.  OTOH, you can try leveraging the system to the wolves' advantage -- which was essentially what I wrote above.

But regardless, understanding is good.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(waterdog @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:22 pm)
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(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:18 pm)
QUOTE
A grizz is about it. That's the only time I carry bear spray. Might carry something in lion/tiger habitat as well, but I haven't reached that point yet.


African lions, that is. Our Felis here in North America don't cause me any minutes of lost sleep, though I've felt their presence a few times.

Then it sounds as if you view your hikes as pretty carefree, even though that's "not your style."

What am I missing?

"Carefree idyllic stroll" in the Sierra reflects, I suppose, a Bill Bryson Appalachian Trail point of view towards trekking. I was merely stating that wasn't really my take on hiking. I don't go hiking simply to have a fearless flat jaunt through the woods that is all planned and neat before me. I challenge the terrain which in turn challenges me, and carry bear spray if a massive predator like a grizz is around.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:18 pm)
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Might carry something in lion/tiger habitat as well, but I haven't reached that point yet.

African lions, that is.

Better be something big. My buddy is a walking eco-safari guide in southern and southcentral Africa. He lugs a .405 Mauser on every walk. And he knows how to use it.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:27 pm)
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"Carefree idyllic stroll" in the Sierra reflects, I suppose, a Bill Bryson Appalachian Trail point of view towards trekking.

I meant that if you have achieved that devil-may-care sense of laughing at whatever your hike throws at you, then--regardless of the challenges of the terrain and weather--it indeeds is an idyllic experience.

Some people have achieved that sense of enlightenment even about grizz--and not actually gotten mauled like Treadwell.

I thought that Bryson book was awful, BTW.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah, you probably hit that western border near Reserve NM who have had a strong anti-federal sentiment in the 15 years since I've been going to the Gila.  Big into hunting outfitting north of Bursum Road (non-wilderness but USFS).  You missed the "no-UN" zone signs on someone's shotgun shack however.  In balance ...  

There's also a strong pro-wolf lobby mostly (but not 100%) based in the cities of Las Cruces, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, etc.. with wolf litters born in the El Paso Zoo and screened for genetic variability.  Silver City, probably the closest town of any size, is trying to market itself as a haven for northern retirees, so hopefully the crazy folk are limited to Letters to the Editor buried on p.39.

The wolves are caught in Mexico and then bred up here for genetic variability before being released into the Gila.  Interestingly according to the pro-wolf people, the local elk were imported from Canada since the mining camps of old shot about everything out of existence to feed the miners. It's kind of a NAFTA wilderness.  Then again in the desert, they also imported South African gemsbok (oryx) so it's not really a natural ecosystem vertebrate wise anymore.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 31 2013, 11:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(waterdog @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:37 pm)
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.

I thought that Bryson book was awful, BTW.

Ditto.  Not awful in the sense of writing.  That I thought was good and it was funny.  But too many people think of it as hiking book which it isn't.

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(SW Mtn backpacker @ Mar. 31 2013, 11:58 pm)
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Yeah, you probably hit that part near Reserve NM who have had a strong anti-federal sentiment in the 15 years since I've been going to the Gila.  You missed the "no-UN" zone signs on someone's shotgun shack however.  In balance ...  

There's also a strong pro-wolf lobby mostly (but not 100%) based in the cities of Las Cruces, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, etc.. with wolf litters born in the El Paso Zoo and screened for genetic variability.

Interestingly according to the pro-wolf people, the elk are imported since the mining camps of old shot about everything out of existence to feed the miners.  Then again in the desert, they also imported South African gemsbok (oryx) so it's not really a natural ecosystem vertebrate wise anymore.

I'm happy for your input; I was hoping for it. Can't say anything to the other vertebrates, but as a plant person, I really enjoyed seeing some 'incongruent' Mimulus near Jordan canyon hot springs on this past trip.


As to Bryson, his "hiking" book was somewhat enjoyable for a few pages. I actually LOLed when reading some of his Australia book, but overall his AT book was a a hackneyed disgrace to the trail.


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(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 8:56 pm)
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. . . The thing to do is to put those lands squarely in public (government) hands.  If government authority sells land -- then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is living on federal land nearby? Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is merely crossing private land?

You can treat the questions as rhetorical if you wish. The problem is that many landowners don't want any wolves on land near theirs. And those landowners certainly don't want the wolves crossing their land. So "every right to keep their land safe" gains some extreme interpretations in their hands.

But the landowners' rights are in fact limited by law — even on their own private land. They are not entitled to kill wildlife just because those animals cross their land or just because the landowner is afraid that wildlife may pose a danger to his possessions.

There are numerous limitations to the rights of private land owners. And some of those limitations have been securely in place before and since the founding of the American Republic.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TravisNWood @ Apr. 01 2013, 12:14 am)
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 8:56 pm)
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. . . The thing to do is to put those lands squarely in public (government) hands.  If government authority sells land -- then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is living on federal land nearby? Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is merely crossing private land?

You can treat the questions as rhetorical if you wish. The problem is that many landowners don't want any wolves on land near theirs. And those landowners certainly don't want the wolves crossing their land. So "every right to keep their land safe" gains some extreme interpretations in their hands.

But the landowners' rights are in fact limited by law — even on their own private land. They are not entitled to kill wildlife just because those animals cross their land or just because the landowner is afraid that wildlife may pose a danger to his possessions.

There are numerous limitations to the rights of private land owners. And some of those limitations have been securely in place before and since the founding of the American Republic.

The question is, how are laws enforced if these actions are taking place clandestinely (in many cases) on the private land? It's easier to hide misdeeds if you "own" the land. It is the culture itself that is toxic to the wolves.

From what I gathered from the numerous trailheads I encountered down south there, the legality of killing a wolf is only 'unquestioned' if the wolf is caught attacking a human or livestock. But billboards like these lead me to presume that people are out there to kill these creatures no matter what they're eating. The only circumstance with which I agree in the killing of a wolf would be in fact if it were actively attacking a human. Which, I'm guessing, doesn't even happen down there based on their numbers and amount of habitat.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(waterdog @ Mar. 31 2013, 8:20 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 10:56 pm)
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then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

This thread probably belongs in TPA.

Private landowners, contrary to the enshrined beliefs of the far right, do not hold carte blanche over what they can do on private property. They just know the hot buttons, and how to push 'em.

There are all kinds of restrictions on keeping "their land productive" for the greater good. No testing of nuclear weapons, no dumping of toxics, no slavery enterprises, no construction in a floodplain without proper permits, and taking of fish and game must be done in compliance with existing state and federal regulations--even if it's your own land--just to name a few.

Did not imply carte blanche.  But landowners do have certain rights.  And putting up a billboard to "rally folks to see it their way" is within their rights.

Do some landowners manipulate issues?  Sure.

But I think it is also too easy to go all "liberal" about restricting lands owned by others (i.e. no skin off our backs).

Yeah, may be headed toward TPA.  Wildlife protection and protecting private rights are both necessary -- difficult -- and emotioal...


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(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 10:26 pm)
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. . . From what I gathered from the numerous trailheads I encountered down south there, the legality of killing a wolf is only 'unquestioned' if the wolf is caught attacking a human or livestock. But billboards like these lead me to presume that people are out there to kill these creatures no matter what they're eating. . . .

Yup. That's it in a nutshell. There are plenty of people there and in the Northern Rockies with that attitude. Not all landowners are that way, but there are enough to be troublesome.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TravisNWood @ Mar. 31 2013, 9:14 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 8:56 pm)
QUOTE
. . . The thing to do is to put those lands squarely in public (government) hands.  If government authority sells land -- then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is living on federal land nearby? Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is merely crossing private land?

You can treat the questions as rhetorical if you wish. The problem is that many landowners don't want any wolves on land near theirs. And those landowners certainly don't want the wolves crossing their land. So "every right to keep their land safe" gains some extreme interpretations in their hands.

But the landowners' rights are in fact limited by law — even on their own private land. They are not entitled to kill wildlife just because those animals cross their land or just because the landowner is afraid that wildlife may pose a danger to his possessions.

There are numerous limitations to the rights of private land owners. And some of those limitations have been securely in place before and since the founding of the American Republic.

Yes, the devil is always in the details.  But depending on habitat and all... would be nice to keep the land public.  What if the public area is sufficiently large to sustain a healthy wolf population -- such that wolves really will have to wander very far off to get out of protected area -- in which case they can be hunted -- without endangering the wolf population overall??

Regardless of details, this will always be a balancing act... a compromise from all sides.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Apr. 01 2013, 12:33 am)
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(waterdog @ Mar. 31 2013, 8:20 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 10:56 pm)
QUOTE
then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

This thread probably belongs in TPA.

Private landowners, contrary to the enshrined beliefs of the far right, do not hold carte blanche over what they can do on private property. They just know the hot buttons, and how to push 'em.

There are all kinds of restrictions on keeping "their land productive" for the greater good. No testing of nuclear weapons, no dumping of toxics, no slavery enterprises, no construction in a floodplain without proper permits, and taking of fish and game must be done in compliance with existing state and federal regulations--even if it's your own land--just to name a few.

Did not imply carte blanche.  But landowners do have certain rights.  And putting up a billboard to "rally folks to see it their way" is within their rights.

Do some landowners manipulate issues?  Sure.

But I think it is also too easy to go all "liberal" about restricting lands owned by others (i.e. no skin off our backs).

Yeah, may be headed toward TPA.  Wildlife protection and protecting private rights are both necessary -- difficult -- and emotioal...

In essence, you're calling it a freedom of speech issue. Which I cannot contend. Sure, they have the right, and if they didn't have this constitutional right, the American South would still be racially segregated. Their right, however, is still not inherent enough for me to ignore what I consider deluded sickness that is too focused on economic gain and less so on wilderness integrity. This culture/sickness is still something to be fought, and hopefully, eventually overcome.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Interesting to note that the Endangered Species Act--which is central to wolf protection and expansion--the Clean Water Act, and Clean Air Act were all either initially signed or substantially strengthened and broadened by Republican Administrations.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Apr. 01 2013, 12:41 am)
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(TravisNWood @ Mar. 31 2013, 9:14 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 31 2013, 8:56 pm)
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. . . The thing to do is to put those lands squarely in public (government) hands.  If government authority sells land -- then owners who pay good money have every right to keep their land safe and productive!

Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is living on federal land nearby? Is a wolf a threat to private land if that wolf is merely crossing private land?

You can treat the questions as rhetorical if you wish. The problem is that many landowners don't want any wolves on land near theirs. And those landowners certainly don't want the wolves crossing their land. So "every right to keep their land safe" gains some extreme interpretations in their hands.

But the landowners' rights are in fact limited by law — even on their own private land. They are not entitled to kill wildlife just because those animals cross their land or just because the landowner is afraid that wildlife may pose a danger to his possessions.

There are numerous limitations to the rights of private land owners. And some of those limitations have been securely in place before and since the founding of the American Republic.

Yes, the devil is always in the details.  But depending on habitat and all... would be nice to keep the land public.  What if the public area is sufficiently large to sustain a healthy wolf population -- such that wolves really will have to wander very far off to get out of protected area -- in which case they can be hunted -- without endangering the wolf population overall??

Regardless of details, this will always be a balancing act... a compromise from all sides.

Unfortunately, in the case of the Gila (and indeed many, if not most, national forest and adjacent wilderness areas), there are people, ranchers no less, living in the middle of the national forest. I saw their stinking cattle too, with my own eyes, crossing into wilderness boundaries.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Mar. 31 2013, 9:41 pm)
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...what I consider deluded sickness that is too focused on economic gain and less so on wilderness integrity. This culture/sickness is still something to be fought, and hopefully, eventually overcome.

That's a far, far bigger issue -- and one that I actually agree with you.  And not just the pursuit of economic gain, but our relentless consumption!!   Our nation enjoys some of the highest incomes anywhere in the world -- and yet manages to accumulate the biggest debt anywhere in the world -- by far!!  Boggles the mind just how much we consume -- that the world's highest incomes still cannot support our habit...


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(waterdog @ Apr. 01 2013, 12:44 am)
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Interesting to note that the Endangered Species Act--which is central to wolf protection and expansion--the Clean Water Act, and Clean Air Act were all either initially signed or substantially strengthened and broadened by Republican Administrations.

And yet are under siege by the same party. Interesting indeed. I don't really view it as a party or political issue, since I subscribe to no party. Therefore I would say this thread is fine just where it is. It is a human vs. wilderness issue, something that should be fundamentally important to every nature lover and by extension every backpacker.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 01 2013, 12:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Reminiscence @ Apr. 01 2013, 12:45 am)
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there are people, ranchers no less, living in the middle of the national forest. I saw their stinking cattle too, with my own eyes, crossing into wilderness boundaries.

Holy $hit!

HAYDUKE LIVES!!!


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