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Topic: Capture/death of the Boston Marathon bombers, The dark side< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 10:52 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

First, let me say that I, like nearly everyone, am absolutely horrified by the senseless bombings in Boston and that I'm grateful that it appears justice will be served.  My congratulations and thanks to the law enforcement agencies that successfully brought this episode to an end so quickly. They deserve and have my thanks.

However, in spite of this, I can't help but be bothered by the tremendous power and resources the government demonstrated it can bring to bear against it's citizens.  In the case of the Boston bombings, it was certainly justified. However, to me it is a bit frightening that the government has so much power and so many resources that it is virtually impossible to resist it or escape it.  I can't help but think, what if we ever evolve to the point that we have repressive totalitarian government (and it could come from the right or the left) in power?  It would have the same resources available to it to crush any type of opposition or dissent.  With cameras everywhere, the power of computers, the overwhelming power of semi-militaristic police departments (SWAT teams, etc.), and the ability to manipulate the media, what chance would any legitimate oppositional movement have against the government?  I don't think our current government or any in the past - although we have flirted with it - are at that point yet, but I worry about the future.  Just how far are we from Orwell's "Big Brother'?  It sometimes frightens me.  Just food for thought.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 10:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A disarmed citizenry might have much to fear.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 10:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(pass-thru @ Apr. 19 2013, 10:58 pm)
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A disarmed citizenry might have much to fear.

Ah, but the suspects in the Boston bombings were, apparently, very well armed.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Apr. 19 2013, 10:59 pm)
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(pass-thru @ Apr. 19 2013, 10:58 pm)
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A disarmed citizenry might have much to fear.

Ah, but the suspects in the Boston bombings were, apparently, very well armed.

And the police officers involved ARE armed citizenry.

So yay Good Guys with guns.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, both of you seem to be missing the point that you raised HikerJer.....which is the whole Big Brother issue.  No duh the bad guys are dangerous.  But so too is the government if unchecked.  Obama has not been sufficiently checked.  The most dangerous president ever.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Require background checks to buy batteries and ball bearings?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Apr. 19 2013, 8:52 pm)
QUOTE
First, let me say that I, like nearly everyone, am absolutely horrified by the senseless bombings in Boston and that I'm grateful that it appears justice will be served.  My congratulations and thanks to the law enforcement agencies that successfully brought this episode to an end so quickly. They deserve and have my thanks.

However, in spite of this, I can't help but be bothered by the tremendous power and resources the government demonstrated it can bring to bear against it's citizens.  In the case of the Boston bombings, it was certainly justified. However, to me it is a bit frightening that the government has so much power and so many resources that it is virtually impossible to resist it or escape it.  I can't help but think, what if we ever evolve to the point that we have repressive totalitarian government (and it could come from the right or the left) in power?  It would have the same resources available to it to crush any type of opposition or dissent.  With cameras everywhere, the power of computers, the overwhelming power of semi-militaristic police departments (SWAT teams, etc.), and the ability to manipulate the media, what chance would any legitimate oppositional movement have against the government?  I don't think our current government or any in the past - although we have flirted with it - are at that point yet, but I worry about the future.  Just how far are we from Orwell's "Big Brother'?  It sometimes frightens me.  Just food for thought.

Jer, and you don't like guns.

I agree with everything you've said, but if you think the government's desire to disarm you is benign, you're kidding yourself... with due respect.

I've said for twenty+ years Americans will trade their civil rights for the illusion of security.

The fact the gov't could also shut down an entire city for a day is HIGHLY disturbing.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I see your point, Hikerjer. I'm glad law enforcement has such good firepower and science. And, I'm glad the citizenry has good firepower. There are no easy answers to the issues of big brother, posse comitatus, etc..
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Brad, respect appreciated. But really, I don't want to turn this into a gun thread.  Far from it.  However, if you think an armed citizenry, whatever that is, can resist the full power and force of the U.S Government, then with all due respect, you're kidding yourself.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Apr. 19 2013, 9:33 pm)
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Brad, respect appreciated. But really, I don't want to turn this into a gun thread.  Far from it.  However, if you think an armed citizenry, whatever that is, can resist the full power and force of the U.S Government, then with all due respect, you're kidding yourself.

I don't disagree at all Jer... but the line should (must) be drawn somewhere.

My ancestors fought a Lexington and Concord, and one is a signer of the Declaration... they didn't do that for this.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Apr. 19 2013, 11:33 pm)
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Brad, respect appreciated. But really, I don't want to turn this into a gun thread.  Far from it.  However, if you think an armed citizenry, whatever that is, can resist the full power and force of the U.S Government, then with all due respect, you're kidding yourself.

The government is power laden with incompetancy.  And the incompentancy is just as scary as the power.  Consider  the citizen of New York whose firearms were seized in error last week because they confused his mental health records.

I have an inside view to the incompetancy of the federal government and it is sickening and scary.  I am talking about law enforcement and all levels of beauracracy.

Yet Americans are increasingly willing to give more control to the federal government.  The mistake will be very apparent....unfortunately probably only when it is too late.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(pass-thru @ Apr. 19 2013, 11:20 pm)
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Require background checks to buy batteries and ball bearings?

Yep.

And they are monitoring all social media right now.  Even this message board.

They know who you are and what you've written.  They know your opinions and how you feel.

When THEY decide to invoke world domination, and enslave every person in the US to serve whatever it is they want us to serve THEM for....   you will be sniped first.  Or your car will explode out from under you unexpectedly one morning.

They will clean out all the opposition. Anyone who's shown any sign of being a "problem" or a barrier to THE AGENDA.  Every US citizen will be judged and culled if need be.

They want you as mindless cattle.  A lobotomized production slave, toiling to serve THEIR PLAN.

No one wants this future.  Flee while you can.

BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(pass-thru @ Apr. 19 2013, 11:45 pm)
QUOTE
Yet Americans are increasingly willing to give more control to the federal government.  The mistake will be very apparent....unfortunately probably only when it is too late.

Click, click, boom, Citizen.

Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

Don't fight it.  Peace is found in service.

For the Greater Good.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Spindle, you ought to write a book.  Maybe you could title it, 2084

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

God forbid, but I believe an armed citizenry could protect themselves. Did  anyone notice the amount of resources devoted to two young men? Still, I want peace. Again, there are no good answers.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Apr. 20 2013, 12:14 am)
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Again, there are no good answers.

I'm in total agreement on that.  As the saying goes, "no black or white, only shades of grey."

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(spindle @ Apr. 19 2013, 11:49 pm)
QUOTE

(pass-thru @ Apr. 19 2013, 11:20 pm)
QUOTE
Require background checks to buy batteries and ball bearings?

Yep.

And they are monitoring all social media right now.  Even this message board.

They know who you are and what you've written.  They know your opinions and how you feel.

When THEY decide to invoke world domination, and enslave every person in the US to serve whatever it is they want us to serve THEM for....   you will be sniped first.  Or your car will explode out from under you unexpectedly one morning.

They will clean out all the opposition. Anyone who's shown any sign of being a "problem" or a barrier to THE AGENDA.  Every US citizen will be judged and culled if need be.

They want you as mindless cattle.  A lobotomized production slave, toiling to serve THEIR PLAN.

No one wants this future.  Flee while you can.

BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING.

Been there, doing that.

EVERYBODY IS WATCHING!!!
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Apr. 19 2013, 9:33 pm)
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However, if you think an armed citizenry, whatever that is, can resist the full power and force of the U.S Government, then with all due respect, you're kidding yourself.

Probably not but are we supposed to just roll over and give in?

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A regular citizen saw his boat cover was disturbed, took a look and saw the fugitive and called it in.

The American system worked.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(pass-thru @ Apr. 19 2013, 11:19 pm)
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 The most dangerous president ever.

Don't be ridiculous.  What about Jackson who deliberately ignored Supreme Court rulings?  Lincoln with his institution of mandatory conscription.  FDR who imprisoned thousands of loyal Americans in intern camps without any due process or cause whatsoever.  Nixon and Watergate with his illegal wire taps , enemies list and and his illegal actions during Vietnam and on and on.  Then's there's G. W. Bush and the Patriot Act which tramps on all sorts of civil liberties.  Just a few for starters.  Take a look at your history my friend.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Apr. 20 2013, 12:29 am)
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Probably not but are we supposed to just roll over and give in?

You raise a legitimate question.  One I sincerely hope none of us ever has to answer.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 12:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hmmmmmm...  okay.  So what if the government did none of that?  Would we have been better off?

A very similar thing happened earlier this year very close to home with the Christopher Dorner thing.  I know many of the folks who were involved with the lockdown in Big Bear (including our ranger stations), tracking him down, and I even know the officer who tracked him down to that cabin, and was thus at the scene at the final gunfight.  I've heard the story and it's one of great heroism.  I for one have nothing but praise and respect for brave officers like that, who put everything on the line.  And lots of thanks to the government who trains them and gives them the resources they need to do their job.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 3:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not really that worrisome at all. Remember this was a law enforcement action to catch the suspects but now with enhanced video surveillance.  A crime like this will be fully investigated and govt. can put the names out online faster than waiting till you are at the post office, looking at 1955's "Most Wanted".  If  "sky-net" or whoever really wants to get you, it would just level your neighborhood with a B-52 with no warning., ... you wouldn't even hear it.  Think about it and don't be a spaz.  You're not going anywhere without a 52' plasma television anyways.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 4:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm not big into conspiracy theories or anything, but the current situation scare the hell out of me, especially concerning Homeland Security.  I'd keep a very close eye on them and the State Dept.  The State Department has wanted a private army for the last ten years, and almost had one with Blackwater, until Congress intervened and cancelled all the Blackwater contracts.

Now Homeland Security has placed an order for 1.6 BILLION (with a B) rounds of ammunition, and is buying up most of the surplus MRAPs (armored trucks) left over from Iraq.  This is all happening during massive budget cuts and big military drawbacks.  Also, notice the one Federal agency you heard nothing about during this whole ordeal.  Yep, Homeland Security was silent.  I don't have ANY trust in that organization, and feel it should be disbanded immediately.  However, they'll probably use this as an example of how terribly under-funded they are.

Keep an eye out.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 6:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

18 hours to find one 19-year old.  

The government might have lots of resources, but I wouldn't call them all that effective.

How well would it have done if there 100 or a 1000 bombers running around the country setting off bombs?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 6:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Apr. 20 2013, 12:11 am)
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Spindle, you ought to write a book.  Maybe you could title it, 2084

I've been writing that one for a while but it's too much of a re-tooled 1984.   Being a poser is undesirable.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 6:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Apr. 20 2013, 12:14 am)
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God forbid, but I believe an armed citizenry could protect themselves. Did  anyone notice the amount of resources devoted to two young men? Still, I want peace. Again, there are no good answers.

Yes, we did.

They brought ALL the available resources to bare on two nutjobs who were killing innocent civilians with all the resources THEY had available to them.

I expect no less from the people we've tasked to end these situations.

Although I'm a little peeved that they didn't blow the fricken boat up from under him.  That would have been justice.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 6:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Apr. 20 2013, 12:29 am)
QUOTE

(hikerjer @ Apr. 19 2013, 9:33 pm)
QUOTE
However, if you think an armed citizenry, whatever that is, can resist the full power and force of the U.S Government, then with all due respect, you're kidding yourself.

Probably not but are we supposed to just roll over and give in?

From what, exactly?

Is our own government going to force it's own army-citizens to corral, detain, and exterminate the whole country?

So lets say the army (who are our own armed citizens) AND the civilian citizens are all carrying the same weaponry.

Who gets to handle the mental-case sniper in the tower? Or the two teenage citizens who are bombing the town?

I need the source of the Control Group who will be Judge and Executioner over the equally weaponry-matched Government official-citizens and private citizens, for my book.

Perhaps the GMO foods will turn the next couple generations into mindless zombies they can control to work their fields and breed more zombie children.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 6:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Apr. 20 2013, 6:07 am)
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18 hours to find one 19-year old.  

The government might have lots of resources, but I wouldn't call them all that effective.

How well would it have done if there 100 or a 1000 bombers running around the country setting off bombs?

It took five years to find one red-neck.  When Eric Rudolph was captured, it was by a part time deputy sheriff who saw a guy looking in a dumpster.  In this case, the cops didn't find him, a local citizen found him and called the cops.

I find it refreshing that you're starting to see that we have way to large a federal government who has flexed it's muscle way more than necessary.

Remember Waco?  Ruby Ridge?  Kent State?


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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 6:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

No matter how little or how much fire power our government our system is still dependent on trust.

What if Nixon had refused to leave the white house, and the military and executive law enforcement agencies supported him?

We depend on our government institutions to stay between the boundaries set by our Constitution, even if we don't all agree on any particular administration's exact position within those boundaries.

But if any one individual could muster the support of the military and law enforcement than a house full of AR-15's isn't going to be how we overthrow a tyrant.  It'll take more than yahoos with guns.
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