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Topic: Please Sign the Petition to Repeal the Fee!?, Great Smoky Mountains National Park< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 1:03 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Please read and sign the petition to repeal the backcountry fee for the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  This is important to us now and for future generations.  If you think this is not going to affect public lands in outlying areas think again. I just read where Citico is beginning to charge for primitive sites! They are following suit behind the Smokies in charging fees.

Fees for a spot to merely place your tent.

The fee in the Smokies is a test run for other fees affecting ALL of us.. it will spread like a cancer.

Vote NO CONFIDENCE toward Dale Ditmanson and the current corrupt administration for he/they clearly do not care what we say as the public.  Time to make it count, son!

Sign Petition to Repeak Back country fees!


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"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."~~Isaiah 53:5
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 3:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I keep getting an error message, I'll try later.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 3:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks man. Don't give up! I heard from another lady who was getting an error message as well. not sure what that is about. oy. technology is great when it works!

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"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."~~Isaiah 53:5
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think this was discussed about this time last year in a thread.  I am not sure this indicates anything about corruption or nefarious future plans.  In my opinion, user fees are simply a sign of the times. I would prefer not to have user fees like this but this is the current trend for all these sorts of activities.

Rumi


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Signed.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Had backcountry fees out west for a long time......think Yellowstone, Grand Teton.  Not a bad thing............
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well I'll tell you what... I'll send you our current park super for free! into the deal! hahahaha!  You can have him! and I'll even send ya some of our county admins who are crooked.  and y'all can keep on a paying your fees just like always! It's a win win!  Got nothing but love for ya.  Thanks to those who have signed.  Keep on Rockin in the Free World!  :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nothing is free, so long as we elect the people we have been electing get used to more user fees vrs. tax funded appropriations.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Amen, but I did not elect this fool.. nor did anyone! He was appernted. I talked to him on the phone and I got nothing out of that conversation but political jive talk.  blink blink.  My offer stands!

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"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."~~Isaiah 53:5
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I realize that I will be in the minority here, but I'm going to point this out anyway...

Entrance to GSMNP is free.  GSMNP has started a $4/person/night fee with a max charge of $20/person.  So, if you go for a long weekend (three nights) you pay $12/head.  If you go for 6 nights you pay $20/head.

Now compare that to getting a reserved backcountry permit for Grand Teton.  This is assuming someone is travelling to GTNP from some distance away.  The reason I say this is that those folks (like me) who travel are less apt to take a chance on getting the hike they want using the walk up system given the expense of airfare, lodging, etc...  Okay, assuming the conditions I mentioned, entrance fee is $25 for seven day pass.  Fee for processing your back country reservation request is $25.  So, say you go on a 5 night trip in the Tetons, you're out a minimum of $50 in fees alone.  

While I agree that placing the burden on backcountry users as opposed to ALL users is not quite fair, I'm not about to suggest they impose a fee on everyone entering the park.  Given the enjoyment that a backpacking trip in GSMNP brings me, $4/night is a relatively insignificant fee and is nothing compared to the fees associated with some of our other national parks.

Not saying I completely agree with the fees, just saying that relative to other parks, it's not a major fee.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 5:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(magicmomma @ Apr. 22 2013, 3:44 pm)
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Amen, but I did not elect this fool.. nor did anyone! He was appernted.

Yes, but the people above him who ultimately control his budget are.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 6:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I knew you'd say that. While I get your message I want you to get MINE! Sign zee papahs!  Or zee beatingz vil continue! Achtung !

do you want to go to the jello pit?


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 6:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Don't give a heck what y'all think of it. Lots of liberals on here I know that. But I did not post this here to become a political debate. [b]Either sign it or don't.[/b]. but leave the politics out of it. That's whats doing us in.. to much of that nonsense.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 6:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(magicmomma @ Apr. 22 2013, 3:05 pm)
QUOTE
Don't give a heck what y'all think of it. Lots of liberals on here I know that. But I did not post this here to become a political debate. [

Well you started this whole thing off with a post with unsubstantiated corruption accusations.  So don't be waggin' yer finger at us for whatever you might think about the rest of us.  The petition itself as are your posts in this thread is as much about the park superintendant as it is about the fee.  You are the one who from the gitgo made this political.

Rumi


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You think what you want. I'll think what I want. Everyone is happy.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 6:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't consider myself a liberal, not really a conservative anymore either. Very independent, and I was just stating facts. In all reality, having no fees is the more socialistic liberal view.

Honestly, I would prefer no user fees except in developed areas, but that's not the reality of whom the American people have been electing. If that puts me in the jello pit, so be it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 6:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't mind fees, as long as they don't charge for the Appalachian trail.
That would get really expensive really quick, if all the parks started charging for the sections of trail.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 7:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

wycanis... I understand where you are coming from and I do agree with you.  It is a frustrating situation to be sure.  I hope that in time to come things improve in favor of keep public lands protected, free and accessible to all.   Public comment and sentiment in this matter was 95% AGAINST and that fact would never have come to light if not for a concerned citizen filing a petition on the Freedom of Information act requesting the comments be made available.  When they did become available AFTER the fee was already decided upon and the lies told that folks wanted this...... it was clear from reading them that the thing really was a solution in search of a problem.
I am not alleging corruption. It is a proven thing. It speaks for itself.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 7:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(magicmomma @ Apr. 22 2013, 3:24 pm)
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You think what you want. I'll think what I want. Everyone is happy.

I got no problem with you or anyone else thinking as they please.  You were the one who started this thread, which is your privilege.  It is everyone else's privilege to respond as they see fit, especially in light of your original post.

If the thread and petition only delt with the fee situation, maybe the thread would be less likely to drift into what you deem political discussion.  BTW, you were also the one to first use the "L" word, thus inviting more political discussion.

Rumi


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 7:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Rumi, its been apparent to me for some time that you don't care for me and that's cool.  I got nothing against you.  In the past you were always copacetic toward me. Times change.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 7:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As someone who sees where the money goes and thinks that upkeep and more rangers is a good thing for our parks and wilderness areas, no thank you...

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 7:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm in favor of fees for the people that actually use the place, like campers, as opposed to additional taxes on everyone.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 8:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Let me put this in a different way, but please forgive me for oversimplifying. I’ll start out with; I know a lot of public land managers, our friend Tarol being one. I don’t think I ever met a single one that likes administrating a fee program. It’s simply not what these folks got into the field to do. But the reality is sites need funding, even with minimal care taking, volunteers up the wazoo and non-profit support there is still a cost and no, it’s not all red tape.

So ask yourself, why would site managers want fees then? I don’t know this Superintendent and haven’t read his story, but I highly doubt he is the one to blame. Is he the one who will take the heat, yes. Did he have influence on the decision? Sure.

I applaud you for being involved in your park. I just think you may be barking up the wrong tree.

Oh, and look on the bright side, the back and forth banter will keep your thread near the top.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 8:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(magicmomma @ Apr. 22 2013, 4:21 pm)
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Rumi, its been apparent to me for some time that you don't care for me and that's cool.  I got nothing against you.  In the past you were always copacetic toward me. Times change.

Not sure how I have communicated anything like that.  I have an off the wall sense of humor which sometimes gets the best of me.  I also have a sarcastic streak which does as well.  I vacillate between being myself and trying not to be a jerk.  I guess I have rubbed you the wrong way and for that I apologize.

I try to reply to what is written in each thread and not carry over any controversey frtom other threads.  I have disagreed strongly with people whom I consider friends, some even close friends.  That includes people here on the board.  I express my opinion strongly at times, as have you.  That is part and parcel of discussing issues like this.

Take care~~~~Rumi


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 9:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(CajunHiker @ Apr. 22 2013, 4:52 pm)
QUOTE
I'm in favor of fees for the people that actually use the place, like campers, as opposed to additional taxes on everyone.

User fees for user activity support does appear to be the intention:
Backcountry Reservation Permit Frequently Asked Questions

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/bc-reservation-permit-faq.htm

The NPS budget has been very tight what with security isses and such for a lot of the historic and DC parks and I can see a park like GSMNP that can't charge entrance fees getting even more squeezed than some others where they can capture a percentage of the entrance fee charged for their own park improvements and maintenance.

I'd prefer affordability be provided by more general federal budget support but the reality is more and more users are being asked to "pay their own way" and I prefer that to the alternative of lesser services and maintenance.

Also long deferred manitenance is coming home to roost....

To my knowledge the situation outlined in this report hasn't significantly chjanged:
http://www.npca.org/assets/pdf/endangeredrangers.pdf
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 9:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(treelinebackpacker @ Apr. 22 2013, 6:38 pm)
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I don't mind fees, as long as they don't charge for the Appalachian trail.

They do charge thru-hikers. It's $20/person
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 9:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tarol @ Apr. 22 2013, 7:28 pm)
QUOTE
As someone who sees where the money goes and thinks that upkeep and more rangers is a good thing for our parks and wilderness areas, no thank you...

Given your line of work I can see where you would feel this way.... and if everything was "as it should be" I could probably been a little more understanding. BUT this fee does not pay for upkeep nor does it pay for more rangers. This was how the whole thing was sold to the public and even though the public comments were 18 to 1 against the fee it was pushed through. After the fee was approved (but before it was implemented), the revenue generation estimate was revised and all staff was removed. There was never any "upkeep" except for park folks using the word in a general sense when talking to the press. The only amenity at the backcountry sites here are bear cables, and they were bought and are maintained by the Friends of the Smokies. The NPS doesn't spend any more to maintain a campsite here than the trail it sits on. In many cases, the campsites are just wide spots on the trail.

The only thing this fee is funding is the online system to collect the fee.  While the shelters and a few sites needed reservations (free) before, most sites were just a self-registration site that required a permit that could be completed at any of the 16 self-service stations in the park. These same sites are now $4/night and we are getting nothing for the fee beyond the ability to pay the fee online. There's no additional staff, no additional amenities - nothing.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 10:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

When I hiked the AT in 1977 I had to pay a fee for GSMNP... what's the big deal?

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 22 2013, 10:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

User fees. You use it, you pay for it.

Think about it... those who don't and won't EVER visit a Nat'l Park at all, much less yours, are already paying taxes for YOUR recreation. And why shouldn't you have to pay a bit more because you ARE using it and they aren't?


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(Montanalonewolf @ Apr. 22 2013, 10:50 pm)
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User fees. You use it, you pay for it.

Think about it... those who don't and won't EVER visit a Nat'l Park at all, much less yours, are already paying taxes for YOUR recreation. And why shouldn't you have to pay a bit more because you ARE using it and they aren't?

Then charge all the day hikers the same fee.Currently a hiker can walk to a campsite, have a campfire, stay as long as he wants. As long as he doesn't setup a camp he isn't camping. My "camp" normally consists of a hammock and a whitebox stove so somehow that makes me camper. Someone of brings a hammock and stove but leaves after a short name is a "day hiker" and doesn't need a permit.

I think a user fee, by definition, would have something we actually use. The only amenity in the Smokies is a dirt spot, It just like the millions of other dirt spots but this one has a wooden stake in the ground with a number carved into it. I don't use this spot any more than the trail I used to get to it.

As to the "who should pay" thing. That was hashed out last year. When the land was taken from the folks who lived here they were promised (not always in writing) there would never been a fee for the park. The park service has manipulated that into "no entrance fee" but the original intent was "no fees".
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