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Topic: A random question< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 9:46 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's a random question that popped up when I read another thread about "How many drugs have you done?"

Why do some people take it as a badge of honor that they've used a large number of chemicals to adle their brain in the name of "fun"?

Please,  no judgments.  I just can't comprehend taking such an action, much less taking a form of pride in doing so, especially repeatedly.  I'm just trying to understand.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 9:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Some people just like to experienment and others are just natlural risk takers.  And for others, they actually had some positive experiences with drugs although I suspect that's the real exception.  I suppose there is some pride in that type of thing no matter what is involved.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 10:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why do some people believe that a book written by men and subsequently edited, censored, abridged, and so shamelessly manipulated for obvious social engineering over centuries by DOZENS of DIFFERENT men as the word of "God?"

Rationality isn't a private estate of the sober.

You think the people of this forum are dumb enough to think your question isn't rhetorical? Your attempts to obscure your self serving judgement have never become you. Why in Hades didn't you just put your comment in that, existing thread?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 10:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Jun. 22 2013, 9:46 am)
QUOTE
Here's a random question that popped up when I read another thread about "How many drugs have you done?"

Why do some people take it as a badge of honor that they've used a large number of chemicals to adle their brain in the name of "fun"?

Please,  no judgments.  I just can't comprehend taking such an action, much less taking a form of pride in doing so, especially repeatedly.  I'm just trying to understand.

It's not about "a badge of honor" for me, anyway.

My grandfather, a man who didn't drink coffee or eat cheese, told me "Try everything.  You never know.".  He had tried them and didn't like them.  I took his advice to heart.

So, I've tried everything.  Not just drugs.  Occupations, lifestyles, sports, amusements, hobbies,...everything I can find in life that I have not tried, I will try.

Call me an experientialist.  But, I have more first-hand knowledge about more things than most people I know.

Geez, that sounded pompous.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 11:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You know, there can be a dark side to being unwilling to do things that fuzz the brain.  I know that the main reason I don't like drinking or even pot is that I'm a control freak.  Absolutely HATE not being 100% in control of myself.  I'm not sure that's any more laudable than an excessive willingness to modify your brain.  Though maybe safer ;)

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 12:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There was a subcultural norm in the late 1960's and early 1970's that considered it a favorable attribute to one's personality to be "weird." Some college students considered that a compliment. Perhaps it indicated the person "did his own thing," "thought outside the box," wasn't "uptight," and questioned some overly strict standards of his conservative upbringing.

After my first year of college in Laramie, Wyoming, I returned home and occasionally worked that summer with a rancher I knew, a neighbor of the ranch I grew up on. One day he read the news about some college student arrested for marijuana possession. Mildly baffled about how a "good kid" could go wrong (as if he didn't know), the old rancher was surprisingly non-judgmental about the youngster.

The old rancher simply said, "I don't think I need any of that stuff. I'm goofy enough as it is." It was something to ponder.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 12:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 22 2013, 10:52 am)
QUOTE
It's not about "a badge of honor" for me, anyway.

My grandfather, a man who didn't drink coffee or eat cheese, told me "Try everything.  You never know.".  He had tried them and didn't like them.  I took his advice to heart.

So, I've tried everything.  Not just drugs.  Occupations, lifestyles, sports, amusements, hobbies,...everything I can find in life that I have not tried, I will try.

Call me an experientialist.  But, I have more first-hand knowledge about more things than most people I know.

Geez, that sounded pompous.

Sounds reasonable.  I too have tried lots of stuff, including some odd and even risky stuff.  The only exception is that I've never tried any chemical that was specifically advertized to fuzz/buzz my brain.  But I can understand how some people view getting stoned the same way I view some of the crazy/risky stuff I've done and view some of the stuff I've done as incomprehensible.  I guess different people draw personal lines in different places.

So I kinda get what you're saying here.  Thanks.  You provided an insight I was looking for.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 12:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RebeccaD @ Jun. 22 2013, 11:39 am)
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You know, there can be a dark side to being unwilling to do things that fuzz the brain.  I know that the main reason I don't like drinking or even pot is that I'm a control freak.  Absolutely HATE not being 100% in control of myself.  

Hmmm.  I never thought of being in self control as having a dark side.  But you make an interesting point.  After all, how much are we really in control?  Not much, in my opinion.  But I clearly dislike voluntarily and purposely giving up what little control I have.  Apparently my dislike is strong enough that I cannot comprehend others wanting to do that.

And it does answer a bit another aspect of this.  I take  a certain measure of pride in having done some unusual and risky stuff.  Perhaps others feel the same pride in having gotten stoned.  That is something I had never considered.

QUOTE
I'm not sure that's any more laudable than an excessive willingness to modify your brain.
Another good point.  I have no idea if it is "laudable" to be willing to modify one's brain or to be opposed to that.  But either way, it is clearly my strong preference not to modify my brain.  I'm certain I have denied myself some interesting experiences by having that preference.

Thanks for your input.  It's provided me another insight.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 12:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Jun. 22 2013, 10:37 am)
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You think the people of this forum are dumb enough to think your question isn't rhetorical? Your attempts to obscure your self serving judgement have never become you. Why in Hades didn't you just put your comment in that, existing thread?

I really don't give a damn if you think my question was rhetorical or not.  Clearly you find my question to be "self serving" and "judgmental" in some way.  That was never my intent, but I'm fine if you want to interpret it that way.  But ask yourself honestly, didn't you just now make a huge judgment about me and my intentions?

QUOTE
Why in Hades didn't you just put your comment in that, existing thread?
Why?  Because that would change the entire direction of that thread.  Clearly plenty of people were enjoying the direction of that thread and my preference was to avoid changing that.

So, "why in Hades" do you so strenuously object to this thread?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 12:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TravisNWood @ Jun. 22 2013, 12:16 pm)
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There was a subcultural norm in the late 1960's and early 1970's that considered it a favorable attribute to one's personality to be "weird." Some college students considered that a compliment. Perhaps it indicated the person "did his own thing," "thought outside the box," wasn't "uptight," and questioned some overly strict standards of his conservative upbringing.

After my first year of college in Laramie, Wyoming, I returned home and occasionally worked that summer with a rancher I knew, a neighbor of the ranch I grew up on. One day he read the news about some college student arrested for marijuana possession. Mildly baffled about how a "good kid" could go wrong (as if he didn't know), the old rancher was surprisingly non-judgmental about the youngster.

The old rancher simply said, "I don't think I need any of that stuff. I'm goofy enough as it is." It was something to ponder.

I'm familiar with the subculture of the 60s and 70s, having lived thru them.

In my case, its a state of bafflement as well.  What's to judge about someone getting stoned?  Nothing in my mind, so long as they don't do it while driving or engaged in some other activity where they can hurt someone.  And they take accountability for whatever they do while stoned (ref the thread on the damaged tent.)

While I too am goofy enough without chemical enhancement, I don't think that is my motivation.  My main issue is probably related to self control.  I perceive humans as having so little control that voluntarily and purposely giving up what little control I have is incomprehensible for me.  But I'm getting a few insights into why that is acceptable (and in some cases maybe even desirable) to some people.

Thanks for your insights.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 12:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Given a few minutes to think about it, I submit this thought:

Mom says, "Don't touch that.  It's hot."

TDale thinks: what's hot?

Sticks finger to oven.  !!!!!!!!!  Okay, that's what hot is.

Experience.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 1:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 22 2013, 12:55 pm)
QUOTE
Given a few minutes to think about it, I submit this thought:

Mom says, "Don't touch that.  It's hot."

TDale thinks: what's hot?

Sticks finger to oven.  !!!!!!!!!  Okay, that's what hot is.

Experience.

Been there.  Done that.

But for me, doing that to my brain chemically was incomprehensible.  I say "was" because I'm starting to get it.  Maybe.  I hope.
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(KenV @ Jun. 22 2013, 10:52 am)
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. . . My main issue is probably related to self control.  I perceive humans as having so little control that voluntarily and purposely giving up what little control I have is incomprehensible for me. . . .

I tend to agree with that, except that I would not use the word "incomprehensible" but rather "unacceptable" for me.

And above that, you made the comment:

(KenV @ Jun. 22 2013, 10:19 am)
QUOTE
. . . The only exception is that I've never tried any chemical that was specifically advertized to fuzz/buzz my brain. . . .

The circles I frequented did not advertise psychoactive drugs that way at all. They were "advertised" as a path to enlightenment. By those circles I refer to fellow honor students in the Honors Program of my university.

For example, in a class called Honors Colloquium, specifically reserved for those of us in that honors program, the instructor devoted a semester to the question, "Why are so many religions centered upon a psychoactive drug?" Of course, he did not ask that question from the outset of the class. He led up to it by having us read and discuss several books about belief systems in the world.

One by one, we read about Indo-Persian ceremonies centered upon the sacred soma juice, Native American ceremonies centered upon peyote or tobacco, and ultimately Christian ceremonies centered upon alcoholic wine. There were other belief systems we read about, including the 1960's subculture. And each belief system, he proposed, considered a psychoactive drug as a route to enlightenment.

So that was far from the "fuzz/buzz your brain" advertisement you perceive.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 1:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Don't "hope".

There's nothing out there.  Drug-induced explorations of the mind are nothing more than recreation.  There's nothing out there.  That's why I quit.  That Don guy that thought drugs were the way to a higher consciousness was full of...

Most of the current angst in the world is because no one can believe that this is it.

Well, this is it.  Those that get it are the happiest.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 1:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TravisNWood @ Jun. 22 2013, 1:11 pm)
QUOTE

(KenV @ Jun. 22 2013, 10:52 am)
QUOTE
. . . My main issue is probably related to self control.  I perceive humans as having so little control that voluntarily and purposely giving up what little control I have is incomprehensible for me. . . .

I tend to agree with that, except that I would not use the word "incomprehensible" but rather "unacceptable" for me.

And above that, you made the comment:

(KenV @ Jun. 22 2013, 10:19 am)
QUOTE
. . . The only exception is that I've never tried any chemical that was specifically advertized to fuzz/buzz my brain. . . .

The circles I frequented did not advertise psychoactive drugs that way at all. They were "advertised" as a path to enlightenment. By those circles I refer to fellow honor students in the Honors Program of my university.

For example, in a class called Honors Colloquium, specifically reserved for those of us in that honors program, the instructor devoted a semester to the question, "Why are so many religions centered upon a psychoactive drug?" Of course, he did not ask that question from the outset of the class. He led up to it by having us read and discuss several books about belief systems in the world.

One by one, we read about Indo-Persian ceremonies centered upon the sacred soma juice, Native American ceremonies centered upon peyote or tobacco, and ultimately Christian ceremonies centered upon alcoholic wine. There were other belief systems we read about, including the 1960's subculture. And each belief system, he proposed, considered a psychoactive drug as a route to enlightenment.

So that was far from the "fuzz/buzz your brain" advertisement you perceive.

The thing is, any chemical that is advertised to "enlighten" or "enhance" my mind is to me an advertisement to fuzz/buzz my brain.  To me, any chemical that alters my brain's perception is a chemical this fuzzes/buzzes my brain, even if it is for medicinal, religious, or recreational reasons.  As a kid I was fuzzed/buzzed in the hospital, and that scared the holy bejeebers out of me.  So for me, doing that voluntarily and purposely has been literally incomprehensible.  I could not comprehend anyone voluntarily making such a choice.  For me such a choice is as incomprehensible as someone saying, hey, I think I'll take this drill and drill into my molar.  I could not comprehend someone making such a choice.

But after the various insights I've gained here, I'm starting to comprehend why some people do that.  At least I think (and hope) I'm starting to comprehend it.  For some people the altered mental state itself is enlightening.  For others the experience is life expanding and perhaps life altering.  I'm on the edges understanding that.

And you are correct.  Although I'm starting to comprehend why some would make such a choice, for me the choice would be unacceptable.  But I had to comprehend it before I could determine that it was unacceptable for me.  And that comprehension is only just now starting to come.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 1:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 22 2013, 1:12 pm)
QUOTE
Don't "hope".

There's nothing out there.  Drug-induced explorations of the mind are nothing more than recreation.  There's nothing out there.  That's why I quit.  That Don guy that thought drugs were the way to a higher consciousness was full of...

Most of the current angst in the world is because no one can believe that this is it.

Well, this is it.  Those that get it are the happiest.

My "hope" is that I'm comprehending the choice to do this.  Now that I'm starting to understand why some make this choice, I'm more certain than ever that this choice is unacceptable for me.

That being said, I'm confident that "this" is not all there is.  There is much more.  And for me, that knowledge has made me extremely happy and has helped me make choices that have provided me with great joy in this life.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 2:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Simply put, I was an idiot, lost, angry and afraid in my youth. I tried to escape from life by using drugs to experience "an alternate reality". It didn't work well and the side affects caused even more depression and anger. I determined that life wasn't fair for more than just me. It was actually not fair to everyone...Therefore, I'd better learn to face it drug free or end up in a pit of escape. I quit, grew up, and decided to face life head on - not necessarily in that order. I don't do drugs anymore although I occasionally will have drink still. It was foolish in my opinion and a waste. I learned a little about myself but I think I could have learned much more using that time sober.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 2:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I like to try new things -- before I slap on the label "like" or "dislike".   But I also want to be in control when making the call. Hence, no mind-altering drugs for me -- not for recreational purpose -- esp. the ones that might be habit forming.

But for the drug users -- is posting about their experiences any more "bragging" than posting trip reports -- or posting how many states they've been? Maybe, but then maybe not.  Depends on intention -- which is hard to discern through an LCD screen.

What is 'enthusiastic sharing' can sometimes be misconstrued as bragging.  We backpackers  ought to know that -- when we just returned from a trip and we so want to  share our wonderful experiences -- and people turn us off after 10 minutes...  :D


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 3:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Every recreational drug I tried, during those college and years of my 20's, was a result of trying to fit in, or get laid.  I never really liked giving up the control, and as an adult I drink so little that it is for the taste, and never to an extent where a buzz might be acquired.  Taste is one reason why I can drink expensive alcohol.  I consume so little that it costs me about $50 a year.  Certainly well within my budget for entertainment.  

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(KenV @ Jun. 22 2013, 9:46 am)
QUOTE
Here's a random question that popped up when I read another thread about "How many drugs have you done?"

Why do some people take it as a badge of honor that they've used a large number of chemicals to adle their brain in the name of "fun"?

Please,  no judgments.  I just can't comprehend taking such an action, much less taking a form of pride in doing so, especially repeatedly.  I'm just trying to understand.

Some folks are adrenaline junkies, some will do anything to keep up an endorphin rush. I guess that Viagra will never be an option for you in the future since it could provide you and your sweetie with some artificial method for enjoying sex for many decades.

Gotta have my caffeine, but hate those sugar blues.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 10:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You might notice that many people did not respond.  They have their reasons, just as the people who responded had theirs.  Not all of the respondents considered it a badge of honor.

I've heard people brag about not being able to program their VCR or Tivo box, and never understood why people would want to be proud to be technically illiterate, but hey, different strokes for different folks.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 22 2013, 11:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think the term "recreational drugs" can be something of a misnomer. And "mind-altering drugs" include more than some folks give credit to.

Take marijuana for an example. Some people may use it to simply relax, much the way others smoke tobacco or drink a beer or cup of coffee. I see nothing inherently "recreational" in that. For them, it does not have a thrill-seeking purpose like bungee jumping off a high bridge.

Rather than for recreation or "play-time," some artists might consider marijuana an aid to their work. And I've known people who read substantial works of history or classic literature after smoking pot. Yet reading history is hardly what one would consider "recreation" or "play." Neither does a group of Christians taking communion with wine or group of Navajo Natives ingesting peyote indulge in "recreation" or "play." So those psychoactive drugs are not inherently "recreational," and claiming to not take recreational drugs does not exclude a person from smoking pot or ingesting peyote or beer.

A cup of coffee, a cigarette, or a beer have each been considered a "recreational drug" for some users. And each contains a mind-altering drug. So it's rather contradictory to claim one does not use mind-altering drugs when drinking a beer or cup of coffee. Thats comparable to an alcoholic claiming to have quit drinking because he gave up hard liquor in preference to beer.

Mind-altering (or psychoactive) drugs include caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, the codeine provided by a dentist, some sleep aids, and that relaxation felt by an active runner when natural opiates flood his system. If you drink beer or coffee, you ingest a mind-altering drug.


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(TravisNWood @ Jun. 22 2013, 8:38 pm)
QUOTE
I think the term "recreational drugs" can be something of a misnomer. And "mind-altering drugs" include more than some folks give credit to.

Take marijuana for an example. Some people may use it to simply relax, much the way others smoke tobacco or drink a beer or cup of coffee. I see nothing inherently "recreational" in that. For them, it does not have a thrill-seeking purpose like bungee jumping off a high bridge.

Rather than for recreation or "play-time," some artists might consider marijuana an aid to their work. And I've known people who read substantial works of history or classic literature after smoking pot. Yet reading history is hardly what one would consider "recreation" or "play." Neither does a group of Christians taking communion with wine or group of Navajo Natives ingesting peyote indulge in "recreation" or "play." So those psychoactive drugs are not inherently "recreational," and claiming to not take recreational drugs does not exclude a person from smoking pot or ingesting peyote or beer.

A cup of coffee, a cigarette, or a beer have each been considered a "recreational drug" for some users. And each contains a mind-altering drug. So it's rather contradictory to claim one does not use mind-altering drugs when drinking a beer or cup of coffee. Thats comparable to an alcoholic claiming to have quit drinking because he gave up hard liquor in preference to beer.

Mind-altering (or psychoactive) drugs include caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, the codeine provided by a dentist, some sleep aids, and that relaxation felt by an active runner when natural opiates flood his system. If you drink beer or coffee, you ingest a mind-altering drug.

Then too, there are differences in degree.  :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2013, 1:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I grew up in the late 60's 70' and partook of every "illegal" substance that didn't require a needle.

At the time and to this day, I don't think most of them should be classified as an illegal substance, any more than alcohol or tobacco, some of our governments biggest revenue sources.

But to the religious "sacrament" side, there's a very good reason that most indigenous cultures found the benefits of certain fungi/ cacti in their rituals and is most likely the root of all religions on the planet.

Pot, alcohol, coke, uppers, downers ,Meth, crack,etc,etc etc do "dull" your brain.

The psychedelics, LSD (derived from the Ergot fungi) , Psilocybin , and Mescaline are in a class by themselves and really do open up "alternate realities" over the course of their 8-12 hr effects.

You can't live there forever, but it can change your mindset forever, far more than my mainstream churches sacramental wine ever did......


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2013, 7:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I read Freud's Cocaine Papers back in the late 60's and it definitely put the use of drugs into a different perspective for me from that of Hunter S. Thompson's.
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People consider a wide variety of things to be a badge of honor.  Having served in the military.  Having not served in the military.  The number of likes they get on facebook or the number of retweets on twitter.  How much they can bench press.  Completing a marathon.  Being a good parent.

Drugs are just another.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2013, 10:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Throwing a wrench in the works...sugar is a mood altering substance.

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(TDale @ Jun. 23 2013, 7:12 am)
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Throwing a wrench in the works...sugar is a mood altering substance.

Yes and so is physical exercise. What you people think those "artificial" compounds turn on an otherwise nonexistent pathway?

Oh and the one drug I know that semi permanently "alters" your brain at the neurological level is legal: nicotine. And that legality has one hell of a body count.

Oh and for my generation the very same "authority" that was saying drugs were were bad were saying napalming villages was good.

As to "badge of honor", my favorite is having removed the label and locking collar from the Gatorade bottle... or perhaps posting supposedly despising a particular geographic location
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(TDale @ Jun. 23 2013, 8:12 am)
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Throwing a wrench in the works...sugar is a mood altering substance.

Yes, and how about testosterone? Ever stand near a whitetail buck that has gotten a whiff of a doe in heat? You can't convince me that the buck is not "on something." Drastic "personality" change.

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(TDale @ Jun. 22 2013, 10:12 am)
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Most of the current angst in the world is because no one can believe that this is it.

Well, this is it.  Those that get it are the happiest.

Quite possibly the truest thing ever written in these forums ... maybe even the entire internet.

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