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Topic: A tragic story involving boy scouts< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 9:49 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Due to bad camp habits by one group of scouts at a scout camp, a bear lost its life.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article....mp.html
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 10:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Was the bear gay?  Were the scout leaders profiling the bear by following him around instead of just calling 911?  Since this was a black bear, I'm sure racism was involved.  We wouldn't be reading about this if it were a Polar (white) bear.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 10:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Arktophobes.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 1:03 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Jul. 12 2013, 6:49 am)
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Due to bad camp habits by one group of scouts at a scout camp, a bear lost its life.

I am a bit surprised that they don't teach some better habits in the BSA, for when eating out in the boonies.

Who was the scout leader? He should be canned from being such, IMO.

-Don-


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 1:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not to excuse a dirty campsite... but I can only imagine trying to keep clean a campsite of 500 kids!  But my read is that candy bars were left out by one particular group -- which was then asked to leave.  Still tragic that a bear had to be shot dead.  And it is up to the adults to instill a sense of appropriate seriousness re. campsites when in bear country.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 1:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why a gun ? In a scout camp ???

I've never encountered a habituated Black bear that hasn't stood down to a loud human voice in over a few 100 encounters.

Bear spray would have saved all of the involved ...

I know scouts love throwing gasoline on a fire, so I'm adding mine.

But 500 scouts in one site ? That many smuggled in candy bars would draw in a grizz from as far away as MT.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 1:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 12 2013, 7:27 am)
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Was the bear gay?  Were the scout leaders profiling the bear by following him around instead of just calling 911?  Since this was a black bear, I'm sure racism was involved.  We wouldn't be reading about this if it were a Polar (white) bear.

A Polar bear's skin is black.

#RealityCheck
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 7:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(DonTom @ Jul. 13 2013, 1:03 am)
QUOTE

(KenV @ Jul. 12 2013, 6:49 am)
QUOTE
Due to bad camp habits by one group of scouts at a scout camp, a bear lost its life.

I am a bit surprised that they don't teach some better habits in the BSA, for when eating out in the boonies.

Who was the scout leader? He should be canned from being such, IMO.

-Don-

BSA does teach better habits.  This group (and its leaders) just ignored them.  The group was kicked out of camp and cannot return for the remainder of the season.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 7:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 13 2013, 1:06 am)
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Not to excuse a dirty campsite... but I can only imagine trying to keep clean a campsite of 500 kids!  But my read is that candy bars were left out by one particular group -- which was then asked to leave.  Still tragic that a bear had to be shot dead.  And it is up to the adults to instill a sense of appropriate seriousness re. campsites when in bear country.

That's correct.  The camp had 500 campers attending.  That means it had 40 to 60 troops attending.  ONE troop out of all those troops violated basic housekeeping standards and by doing so endangered all 500 campers and got a bear killed.  And yes, that troop got kicked out of camp.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 7:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 7:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(swimswithtrout @ Jul. 13 2013, 1:15 am)
QUOTE
Why a gun ? In a scout camp ???

Don't know.  You'd have to ask the state wildlife folks.  That was their solution, not the scouts'.

QUOTE
I've never encountered a habituated Black bear that hasn't stood down to a loud human voice in over a few 100 encounters.
That's probably why the state chose to kill the bear.  This was a young one that would not flee when confronted by multiple aggressive adult humans.

QUOTE
But 500 scouts in one site ? That many smuggled in candy bars would draw in a grizz from as far away as MT.
It was not a single campsite.  It was a commercial scout camp designed to accomodate 600 scouts (several dozen scout troops).   The camp has strict rules about housekeeping and leaving food out.  One troop out of several dozen violated the standards, resulting in a dead bear.  That troop was kicked out of the camp.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 10:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Since this was a Scout camp 500 is about right. There are several campsites with several troops in each one. Also being a scout camp it is probably open to all scouts of all age levels and skill levels. Now if you look at Philmont, where you have to be a certain rank and age and their incidents are lower. At Philmont they have a bear program that stresses the mistake made here. And I can tell you from experience that at scout camps, there will be food in the campsites. The moms will send them with a weeks worth of snacks. You can tell them to leave them home or put in the troop box, but they will sneak/forget and some will end up in the tents and campsites.

My questions is why wasn't the bear put to sleep by the DNR and relocated?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 10:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To drive home the point, the responsible individuals should be charged and fined.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 1:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm not sure why you needed to emntion the scouts as this is tragic whatever the circumstances could have been, but I'll bite:

All the more reason to choose leaders based on competency than mythology. I for one am glad to see the BSA making the move, however gradually, to being an organization compatible with the true ideals of the Republic we all enjoy. It will certainly make it safer for bears and scouts alike.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 1:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Jul. 13 2013, 1:14 pm)
QUOTE
I'm not sure why you needed to emntion the scouts as this is tragic whatever the circumstances could have been, but I'll bite:

All the more reason to choose leaders based on competency than mythology. I for one am glad to see the BSA making the move, however gradually, to being an organization compatible with the true ideals of the Republic we all enjoy. It will certainly make it safer for bears and scouts alike.

Just a few points:

1.  I mentiioned scouts because it is highly relevant to the story.  It's not a story about a few campers in a single campsite.  Its about a few campers among 500 prepubuscent boys in a large commercial camp.

2.  BSA is NOT a camping club/organization.  Camping is but ONE tool in a large bag of tools BSA uses to accomplish its mission.

3.  Unit leaders are NOT selected by BSA.  They are selected by whatever organization (church, fraternal club, PTA, etc) that sponsors and charters the troop with BSA.  Think of it as a franchise with the sponsor "owning" the troop and its leaders and then using the BSA's program and products.  Scout Camp is one of those products.

4.  Unit leaders may or may not be in charge of a troop at scout camp.  Sometimes it's just a dad or someone else who is willing and has the time to spend nearly a week with a bunch of 11 thru 13 yr old boys in the outdoors.  Sometimes its three or four dads tag teaming, with each taking 3 of the days.

Given the above, how do you define "competency" and "compatible with the true ideals of the Republic?"

And I have no idea what you are on about with "mythology".   Is this related to scouting's no atheism policy?  If so, atheism is as much a mythology as any religion.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 2:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Atheism is grounded in the FACT there is no proof whatsoever of the existence of any dieties and given that conclusion derived from a critical thought process as such is unequivocally NOT a mythology.

Our Republic, unlike most religions, is founded on principles of inclusion, not exclusion. As such the BSA is as yet incompatible with the guiding principles of the Republic as any religion grounded in exclusion is. That is their right as a private organization just as it is with insitutionalized exclsuive religions; unfortunately the exercise of that right puts children at risk as exemplified by this situation however these adults came to be in charge of these scouts.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 3:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Jul. 13 2013, 2:29 pm)
QUOTE
Atheism is grounded in the FACT there is no proof whatsoever of the existence of any dieties and given that conclusion derived from a critical thought process as such is unequivocally NOT a mythology.

Critical thought?!!   The FACT of absence of proof is meaningless in this context.   For decades there was absence of proof of relativity, of nutrinos, of black holes, the big bang and a whole host of widely accepted scientific propositions.  And there is still no proof of dark energy, dark matter, multiple universes, and a whole bunch of popular scientific propositions.  Many mathematical axioms also have no proof.  That's why they're axioms.  More than a few have proven false or only true under narrowly defined conditions.

Indeed, it is a "FACT there is no proof whatsoever of the non-existance of God."  None.  So any belief in the non-existance of God is as mythological as any belief in the existance of God.

In my opinion atheism is more mythological than theism.   I have had many personal experiences that cannot be measured by scientific means but were most certainly real.  And they have convinced me not only that God exists, but have provided me a small glimpse into his nature.

Any insistance that atheism is founded on "critical thought" is as baseless as any claim that the "true ideals of the Republic" are based on atheism.

QUOTE
Our Republic, unlike most religions, is founded on principles of inclusion, not exclusion
And where did you get your hokum about "inclusion"?  Is "inclusion" mentioned, referenced, or even implied ANYwhere in our Republic's founding documents?  That belief is as mythological as atheism.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 4:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Jul. 13 2013, 2:29 pm)
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Our Republic, unlike most religions...

Hey DC, Our Republic is not a religion.  It's a form of government.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Jul. 13 2013, 12:01 pm)
QUOTE
So any belief in the non-existance of God is as mythological as any belief in the existance of God.

But the burden of proof is on those who believe something is true. It is NOT on those who believe something does not exist or is not true.

So if you believe in superstitious nonsense, you should have reasonable evidence that your nonsense is true. And so far, I have not seen you do such.

-Don-


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm so glad we have belief in diversity and tolerance.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(DonTom @ Jul. 13 2013, 2:07 pm)
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So if you believe in superstitious nonsense, you should have reasonable evidence that your nonsense is true. And so far, I have not seen you do such.

No, Don.

We have freedom to choose our beliefs.   And by definition of freedom, Ken need not prove his belief to you or to anybody else. So, whether you or anyone else see evidence of his belief is completely beside the point.

You are confusing his freedom with your approval.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jul. 13 2013, 5:20 pm)
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I'm so glad we have belief in diversity and tolerance.

+1

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Chuck D @ Jul. 13 2013, 3:36 pm)
QUOTE

(TDale @ Jul. 13 2013, 5:20 pm)
QUOTE
I'm so glad we have belief in diversity and tolerance.

+1

+2

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TravisNWood @ Jul. 13 2013, 2:39 pm)
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(Chuck D @ Jul. 13 2013, 3:36 pm)
QUOTE

(TDale @ Jul. 13 2013, 5:20 pm)
QUOTE
I'm so glad we have belief in diversity and tolerance.

+1

+2

Agree, but with the caveat that "diversity" and "tolerance" themselves are not absolutes.  Some examples:

1.  I do NOT support the current policy maintained in many school campuses that racial discrimination is appropriate to maintain campus diversity!  Indeed, I find it absolutely insulting that a person's skin color is predictive of his or her behavior/outlook to life.  But there are the special interests...

2.  I support workplace promotion based on merit -- and not quotas of any kind to "promote diversity".  Better we tighten our anti-discrimination laws.

Tolerance -- that's been a catch word we hear often. Depending on the issue on hand, "more is not always better".  Conversely, I believe we should approach "zero tolerance" with great caution as well.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Jesus H. Christ.

WHAT WE NEED is for people to STOP viewing every thread as a vehicle for their personal soapbox.

Act like you're in public, people.  Act like your posts are being read by your mother.

Stop attacking everything.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 5:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Dale, you jumped on this soapbox about tolerance and diversity, no?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 6:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben, I'm tired of the bullflop.

This is a backpacking forum.  If I wanted religious or political debate, I know better places with better minds to turn to.  Even at those sites I find more tolerance.

The [childish remark] that goes around here disguised as discourse is just that.

So, how 'bout we quit it?  Let's end the political crap and talk about backpacking?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 6:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jul. 13 2013, 3:03 pm)
QUOTE
Ben, I'm tired of the bullflop.

This is a backpacking forum.  If I wanted religious or political debate, I know better places with better minds to turn to.  Even at those sites I find more tolerance.

The [childish remark] that goes around here disguised as discourse is just that.

So, how 'bout we quit it?  Let's end the political crap and talk about backpacking?

Actually, I agree.  Let TPA stay in TPA.  Ken?   :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 6:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jul. 13 2013, 3:03 pm)
QUOTE
Ben, I'm tired of the bullflop.

This is a backpacking forum.  If I wanted religious or political debate, I know better places with better minds to turn to.  Even at those sites I find more tolerance.

The [childish remark] that goes around here disguised as discourse is just that.

So, how 'bout we quit it?  Let's end the political crap and talk about backpacking?

Backpacking?

http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....2341830
http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1165665
http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1165558
Good one.

:D
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 13 2013, 6:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Did I bring it in here or keep it in TPA?  Pi$$ off HSH.

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