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Topic: "Fat Boys" may not participate, in BSA National Jamboree< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 9:23 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The linked article has a number of inaccuracies, but it does provide a good jumping off point for a discussion on youth obesity in the USA, which would seem to be an appropriate topic for trail discussion on a backpacking forum.  Please don't turn it into a political discussion.

Obese boys (and adults) are permitted to join BSA (Boy Scouts of America) , but those whose BMI (body mass index) exceeds 40 (which is Class III obese and considered "very severely obese") will not be permitted to participate in this year's National Jamboree.

I personally think this is a good policy.  Allowing severaly obese boys and adults to join scouts would seem to be one way to help them get more fit and become  more healthy.  And limiting their participation in a physically demanding event would seem to have at least three positive effects:

1. it would encourage the very severely obese to improve their fitness so as to qualify for participation in such a highly desirable event.

2.  it would protect the very severely obese from hurting themselves while attempting to participate in such an event

3.  it would protect BSA and the other participants from the negative consequences associated with someone being injured during the event.

LINK
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 10:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't know doesn't sound like a good idea to me. By not inviting them to the jamboree might cause them to take there anger out on some Tagalongs and Somoans.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 10:47 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not sure how discrimination helps.  And, yes, this is a topic for discussion, in TPA.  Not because of the organization, but because this is discrimination based on body shape.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 10:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What group do the BSA not discriminate against? Gays, fat kids, do they allow blacks or Latinos?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 10:57 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's some more information regarding the subject from the BSA FAQ area:

Q. When does the height/weight chart apply? We have differing opinions in our unit/district.
A. The height/weight chart will apply in the following known adventure activities:

When your travels take you more than 30 minutes off an accessible roadway, fire lane, camp road, etc., or where you float, walk, hike, bike, or otherwise go into the backcountry. Depending on the terrain and local conditions, this might be a few hundred yards or a few miles into the backcountry. Most BSA high-adventure camps include a backcountry component (ask them about their requirements before you go). Philmont Scout Ranch has this standard in place as an example.
When your lodge, unit, district, or council requires it as part of a program.
The height/weight chart generally would not apply in the following situations (unless specific instructions are issued as an exception):
The majority of BSA resident camps and most local council Cub Scout/Boy Scout resident camps have drive-up campsites and don’t require packing in or out.
Cub Scout programs. (Backcountry and high adventure are not age-appropriate for Cub Scouting.)
Wood Badge courses in a typical resident camp setting, though courses held at a national high-adventure base such as Philmont Scout Ranch will enforce the limit.
Q. I believe my body fat percentage will prove that I am fit and able to participate in the events described in the Annual Health and Medical Record requiring the use of the height/weight chart. Can I obtain a body fat test from my physician and use those results?
A. Yes, body fat percentage may be used if your weight is 295 pounds or less. However, please call the camp to determine if any specific testing is required. (Acceptable body fat percentage for women is 20 percent or less. Acceptable body fat percentage for men is 15 percent or less. Verification by a physician is required.) Philmont Scout Ranch requires a hydrostatic weighing or DXA test to determine percentage of body fat.

Q. Where did the BSA height/weight chart and alternative body fat percentage come from?
A. The Annual Health and Medical Record is based on several evidence-based sources, including the revised Dietary Guideline for Americans from the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health and Human Services, and has been successfully deployed by our high-adventure bases. The maximum weight for each height in this chart correlates to a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 32 to 33, which is into the obese category. Please refer to these links that explain BMI and body fat percentage.

Children and teens: http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/dnpabmi/  
According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), BMI is a reliable indicator of body fatness for most children and teens. As with BMI, a healthy body fat percentage in kids depends on their age as well as several other factors. Your pediatrician or family physician should be able to determine what your healthy body fat percentage is, dependent upon your height and your age. (http://pediatrics.about.com/od/bmi/a/0806_bmi_crtcms.htm )
Childhood obesity: http://pediatrics.about.com/od/obesity/a/408_obesity_hub.htm  
Adult BMI calculations: http://www.cdc.gov/healthy....or.html  
Understanding adult obesity: http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/PDFs/understandingobesityrev.pdf


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

All these repeated discriminatory acts go to show that BSA just doesn't "get it".

As someone with a BMI of 30 who can somehow...

Dayhike for 19 hours with 6,000' elevation gain
Solo backpack/bushwhack in CO for 10 days straight, almost entirely over 11,000'
Hike successive 10,000' elevation gain days
Trail run 26 miles in +100F temps

...I've come to realize that BMI, although a good indicator for groups, is useless when it comes down to the individual level. Why not just have ALL scouts obtain a doctor's sign-off (or a BSA fitness badge) prior to participating, regardless of BMI?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jul. 22 2013, 11:04 am)
QUOTE
All these repeated discriminatory acts go to show that BSA just doesn't "get it".

As someone with a BMI of 30 who can somehow...

Dayhike for 19 hours with 6,000' elevation gain
Solo backpack/bushwhack in CO for 10 days straight, almost entirely over 11,000'
Hike successive 10,000' elevation gain days
Trail run 26 miles in +100F temps

...I've come to realize that BMI, although a good indicator for groups, is useless when it comes down to the individual level.

BMI of 30 is "overweight".

BMI of 40 is "very severely obese"

'nuff said.

QUOTE
Why not just have ALL scouts obtain a doctor's sign-off (or a BSA fitness badge) prior to participating, regardless of BMI?
Actually, a doctor's sign off is required to attend Jamboree, or ANY scout sponsored camp.  If a boy, a girl, or an adult with a BMI of 40 shows up with a doctor's certification indicating they are qualified to participate in all of the physical activities at Jamboree, they're in.  I hafta wonder how many doctors would provide such a certification and thereby accept full liability when there is an injury?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Marmotstew @ Jul. 22 2013, 10:54 am)
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What group do the BSA not discriminate against? Gays, fat kids, do they allow blacks or Latinos?

Say what?????!!!!

Youth who are gay, fat, black, latino, and/or female are all welcome to join BSA.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hmm I've got a theory. They don't want the fat kids to show up at the jubilee because that will reflect badly on the BSA.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Jul. 22 2013, 11:29 am)
QUOTE

(Marmotstew @ Jul. 22 2013, 10:54 am)
QUOTE
What group do the BSA not discriminate against? Gays, fat kids, do they allow blacks or Latinos?

Say what?????!!!!

Youth who are gay, fat, black, latino, and/or female are all welcome to join BSA.

Curious but does the application ask about race and sexual orientation?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jul. 22 2013, 11:04 am)
QUOTE
All these repeated discriminatory acts go to show that BSA just doesn't "get it".

As someone with a BMI of 30 who can somehow...

Dayhike for 19 hours with 6,000' elevation gain
Solo backpack/bushwhack in CO for 10 days straight, almost entirely over 11,000'
Hike successive 10,000' elevation gain days
Trail run 26 miles in +100F temps

...I've come to realize that BMI, although a good indicator for groups, is useless when it comes down to the individual level.

BMI of 30 is "overweight".

BMI of 40 is "very severely obese"

'nuff said.

QUOTE
Why not just have ALL scouts obtain a doctor's sign-off (or a BSA fitness badge) prior to participating, regardless of BMI?
Actually, a doctor's sign off is required to attend Jamboree, or ANY scout sponsored camp.  If a boy, a girl, or an adult with a BMI of 40 shows up with a doctor's certification indicating they are qualified to participate in all of the physical activities at Jamboree, they're in.  I hafta wonder how many doctors would provide such a certification and thereby accept full liability when there is an injury?


Not according to your link:

Besides the outright banning of fat Boy Scouts from the event, the organization is also requiring that those whose body mass index is slightly lower-between 32 and 39.9-submit their private medical charts to the Boy Scouts for review before being considered for participation in the Jamboree.

I looked up my BMI and it is actually 32 (obese). No way in hell would I submit my private medical charts.

I understand that the BSA is intending to reduce their liability (for good reason), but as seems typical of that organization, they are going about it in the most bass-ackwards way possible.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Move over you atheist...make room on the unwelcome bench for those fat Christian kids.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jul. 22 2013, 11:04 am)
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All these repeated discriminatory acts go to show that BSA just doesn't "get it".

As someone with a BMI of 30 who can somehow...

You should stay home with the "others" and not be allowed to participate in life.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This thread needs a soundtrack ...



Rumi    <~~~~~~fatboyslim


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I agree with the idea that it's good to have some restrictions toward protecting participants and the organization from injuries during physically demanding activities BUT I'm not at all convinced that BMI is the right evaluation criteria, especially if it's the only criteria.

Why not have a simple fitness test?  I think most of the public school phys ed programs use some variation of the "presidential fitness test", which is a combination of endurance, strength, flexibility, BMI.  Besides, if you really want to promote the idea of "fitness", a test like that will give them real fitness goals beyond just losing weight.

If there's a BSA 'fitness badge' as mentioned, that sounds perfect... why not use a process they already have?

I'm another one who has ISSUES with the whole BMI thing.  I'm 5'2" and solidly in the OVERWEIGHT range and it just irks me to no end.  I would have to go on a starvation diet to be in the "normal" range -- how healthy would that be?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

and ...



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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

LeBron James is just a few pounds from being considered obese. Ray Lewis has a BMI of 32 (obese). Are you going to be the one to tell him he needs to submit his private medical chart if he wants to help the BSA?



ETA: That is, of course, if the BSA would overlook his other "condition".


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As the Scout Master of our troop, I have to say, the BSA are really out of touch.  Sure lets discourage over weight kids from getting out doors.  At our week long camp out, I can assure you many boys would be considered "FAT"  Whats next, Jews, red heads, blacks?  My boy is on schedule for his Eagle badge and then wants nothing else to do with the BSA.  What a shame on the BSA.  And yes this does belong in the TPA :(

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(TigerFan @ Jul. 22 2013, 8:50 am)
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Why not have a simple fitness test?  I think most of the public school phys ed programs use some variation of the "presidential fitness test", which is a combination of endurance, strength, flexibility, BMI.  Besides, if you really want to promote the idea of "fitness", a test like that will give them real fitness goals beyond just losing weight.

IMHO I think the Presidential fitness test is a load of crap.  I failed it EVERY year and I've always been in very good shape with a low BMI. I'd still prolly fail it. I'm short, slow and not terribly strong (pull ups? Forget it!)

I don't have an answer, but the Presidental Fitness test isn't it.


Nope. I'm not bitter. Not me. Ugh.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ray Lewis is gay?
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(Marmotstew @ Jul. 22 2013, 9:16 am)
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Ray Lewis is gay?

He's probably godless as well ... not that there's anything wrong with that.

Rumi


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You can definitely argue that the measurement mechanism they are using is flawed, but I do think there is some merit to what the BSA are doing.

It's definitely a tough, and in some cases embarrassing lesson, for these boys, but it's actually pretty good prep for the rest of their lives and hopefully motivation to change their lifestyle while they're still young.  Whether we want to admit it or not social standards, biology, and shear physics dictate that people who are obese are going to have a harder path in life.  Obese people are often excluded from participating in activities that require physical excursion so why should the Boy Scouts be any different.  Beyond that,  being obese means you will be judged by friends, coworkers, and potential employers and whoever has the displeasure of having the seat next to you on a airplane.

Don't like that you are being excluded from the Jamboree???  Put down the video game controller and triple cheeseburger and do something about it.
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jul. 22 2013, 11:34 am)
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Not according to your link:

Besides the outright banning of fat Boy Scouts from the event, the organization is also requiring that those whose body mass index is slightly lower-between 32 and 39.9-submit their private medical charts to the Boy Scouts for review before being considered for participation in the Jamboree.

I looked up my BMI and it is actually 32 (obese). No way in hell would I submit my private medical charts.

I understand that the BSA is intending to reduce their liability (for good reason), but as seems typical of that organization, they are going about it in the most bass-ackwards way possible.

As I said, the linked article has inaccuracies.

BSA provides a four-part medical form that includes many medical statistics and other medical data, including a medical history (including things like history of asthma, diabetes, hypertension, menstrual cycles, hepatatis, etc,etc, medications taken, food allergies, medication allergies, heart rate, blood pressure, albumin, range of mobility, etc, etc.  It requires a pretty thorough medical exam.

A completed form signed by a physician, nurse practitioner or physician's assistant is required to attend any BSA sponsored camp.  That's true for ANYone who attends a scout camp regardless of BMI.  That's been standard procedure for decades.  The first hour at any BSA camp these medical forms are turned  over to the camp's nurse/medical personnel and reviewed in teh presence of the unit leader and the boys so questions can be asked and answered.  Not until the camp nurse is satisfied that the forms are complete and in order will the unit and/or participant be allowed to stay at the camp.  These forms are retained by the camp until the end of camp when they are returned to the unit.  The form is good for ONE year and must be completed again for the next year's camp.

Bottom line: EVERYone submits this medical record to the BSA before they will be allowed to participate in any BSA sponsored camp.

LINK to BSA Medical Form
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dicentra @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:11 pm)
QUOTE

(TigerFan @ Jul. 22 2013, 8:50 am)
QUOTE
Why not have a simple fitness test?  I think most of the public school phys ed programs use some variation of the "presidential fitness test", which is a combination of endurance, strength, flexibility, BMI.  Besides, if you really want to promote the idea of "fitness", a test like that will give them real fitness goals beyond just losing weight.

IMHO I think the Presidential fitness test is a load of crap.  I failed it EVERY year and I've always been in very good shape with a low BMI. I'd still prolly fail it. I'm short, slow and not terribly strong (pull ups? Forget it!)

I don't have an answer, but the Presidental Fitness test isn't it.


Nope. I'm not bitter. Not me. Ugh.

Note that I said "some variation of..."   :p   (And we are talking a more current version than President Lincoln... :D )

I do think that there are decent variations of the actual presidential test out there.  I know my gym uses one for their fitness assessments and it was a balance between strength, endurance, flexibility, etc. in a way that one stength could compensate for a weakness.

Put it this way, I'm also short and slow, high BMI but pretty strong and flexible, and I did OK, in the "better than average for my age" range, which was pretty accurate.

Certainly a better indicator than my BMI alone.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:03 pm)
QUOTE
LeBron James is just a few pounds from being considered obese. Ray Lewis has a BMI of 32 (obese). Are you going to be the one to tell him he needs to submit his private medical chart if he wants to help the BSA?



ETA: That is, of course, if the BSA would overlook his other "condition".

Hmmmmmm.

EVERYone, you, me, LeBron James, Ray Lewis, Arnold Schwarznegger, EVERYone must submit the completed and signed four-part BSA medical form linked below to participate in any BSA camp.

LINK

Why do you find that offensive?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The form ask religous preference. Is that racist?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jul. 22 2013, 11:50 am)
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I'm another one who has ISSUES with the whole BMI thing.  I'm 5'2" and solidly in the OVERWEIGHT range and it just irks me to no end.  I would have to go on a starvation diet to be in the "normal" range -- how healthy would that be?

I'm the same height as you.  I'm also considered "overweight" by the US Government ("obese" by some gov't standards), and yet I have passed a Navy flight physical every year for decades, as well as the annual Navy/military physical fitness test.  So no, I'm not irked by the label.

I'm personally generally not concerned with labels, especially arbitrary ones set by some faceless gov't bureaucrat.  But I do understand how such labels can be irksome.
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(Marmotstew @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:44 pm)
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The form ask religous preference. Is that racist?

If so, then the US government is racist.  LOTS of their forms ask the exact same question.

In any event, that's a rather spurious point.  This thread is about obesity and its deleterious affects on our society's children, especially their long-term health.  That seems like a good discussion to have among friends or strangers around a campfire.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Do they make the atheists stay home from the jubilee to help in the indoctrination process? Or just the fat bastards?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 1:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Right from the BSA website:

Accordingly, it is the policy of the 2013 National Scout Jamboree that:

The national jamboree will uphold a decision by an applicant’s personal health care practitioner to deny participation for medical reasons.

The national jamboree will accept for participation applicants that are recommended for participation by their health care practitioner and have a BMI of 31.9 or less.

The Jamboree Medical Staff will review all applicants with a BMI of 32.0–39.9 and consider jamboree participation based on  1) health history, 2) submitted health data, and 3) recommendation of the applicant's personal health care provider. For applicants with a BMI >31.9, a recommendation of "no contraindications for participation" by the applicant's personal health care provider does not necessarily guarantee full jamboree participation. The jamboree medical staff will have final determination of full jamboree participation.

Applicants with one or more of the following risk factors may be requested to provide further documentation, including cardiac testing, pulmonary testing, or further information from their physician to ensure the applicant's ability to participate.

◦Hypertension
◦Diabetes mellitus
◦Tobacco use
◦Dyslipidemia
◦Prior heart attack
◦Coronary angioplasty/stent
◦Coronary artery surgery
◦COPD
◦Sleep apnea requiring CPAP or BiPAP
◦Prior stroke or transient ischemic attack (TIA)
◦Family history of premature (before age 55) coronary artery disease

*Applicants may be requested to provide further documentation, including cardiac testing, pulmonary testing, or further information from their physician to ensure the applicant’s ability to participate.

Jamboree Medical Services will provide specific instructions to the practitioner to determine eligibility.

The national jamboree cannot accept for participation any applicant with a BMI of 40.0 or higher.


https://summit.scouting.org/en....er.aspx


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