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Topic: Personal Locator Beacon, SPOT device, or VHF, Mandatory?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 12:25 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Parks Canada has long required a beacon be carried for backcountry wilderness travel on some of their routes in Gros Morne, the vhf beacons since at least the mid-nineties when I first went there and more recently expanded to other satellite systems being acceptable to fulfill the regulation (but one of those must be carried).
http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/nl/grosmorne/activ/activ2e/plan.aspx

Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

Bear resistant canister use went up a lot when the cans were made available at a modest cost at the Wilderness Permit counter so maybe it's time to do the same with another safety technology?

I'd be inclined to SPOTs since they're more manageable in terms of response as they go through a private company while PLB's would immediately trigger a full on COSPAS-SARSAT incident.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 3:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

SPOT's weak spot is that it uses third party hardware to transmit the signals.

SPOT doesn't have a lot of confidence in its system given the waiver of all liability that it requires as part of the terms of service.

The "shouting" (ALL CAPS) is SPOT's, not mine:

QUOTE
SPOT does not own or control the service providers that operate the links between the satellite ground stations, including satellite antennas and supporting equipment, and the Globalstar satellites, nor does SPOT own or control the GPS Satellite Constellation, and cannot be responsible for any Service interruptions or interference that are associated with those Satellite Systems or ground stations and the interconnecting networks.  Neither does SPOT own or control the cell phone and e-mail service providers who receive the e-mail and short service message (“SMS”) messages generated from SPOT Products, and is not responsible for any delays by the e-mail and cell phone providers related to these messages.  

THE LIMITED WARRANTY ACCOMPANYING YOUR SPOT PRODUCT IS THE ONLY WARRANTY PROVIDED IN RELATION TO YOUR SPOT PRODUCT.  YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE SPOT PRODUCT IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK OTHER THAN SUCH LIMITED WARRANTY.  EXCEPT AS SPECIFIED IN THE LIMITED WARRANTY, SPOT DISCLAIMS ALL EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES FOR YOUR SPOT PRODUCT, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES REGARDING THE CONDITION, DESIGN, SPECIFICATIONS, WORKMANSHIP, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OF YOUR SPOT PRODUCT, OR ANY WARRANTIES YOU’RE YOUR SPOT PRODUCT IS FREE FROM LATENT DEFECTS OR DEFICIENCIES, OR THAT YOUR SPOT PRODUCT IS FREE FROM INFRINGEMENT OF ANY PATENT, TRADEMARK, COPYRIGHT OR PROPRIETARY RIGHT OF ANY THIRD PARTY. NO ADVICE OR INFORMATION, WHETHER ORAL OR WRITTEN, OBTAINED FROM SPOT OR ELSEWHERE, WILL CREATE ANY WARRANTY NOT EXPRESSLY STATED IN THE LIMITED WARRANTY.

YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE SERVICES AND ANY ASSOCIATED SOFTWARE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THE SERVICES AND ANY ASSOCIATED SOFTWARE ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND “AS AVAILABLE” AND ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, REPRESENTATIONS, AND CONDITIONS (EXPRESS OR IMPLIED) INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES REGARDING CONDITION, WORKMANSHIP, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, THAT THE SERVICES AND/OR ANY ASSOCIATED SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, THAT THE OPERATION WILL BE WITHOUT INTERRUPTION OR ERROR-FREE, OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY, OF QUIET ENJOYMENT, THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, OF NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS OR ANY OTHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY ARISING BY STATUTE OR OTHERWISE IN LAW OR FROM A COURSE OF DEALING OR USAGE OF TRADE, ARE HEREBY EXPRESSLY EXCLUDED FROM THIS AGREEMENT AND DISCLAIMED BY SPOT AND ALL SERVICE PROVIDERS TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.  SPOT AND SUCH SERVICE PROVIDERS MAKE NO WARRANTY IN RELATION TO THE AVAILABILITY, SUITABILITY OR ACCURACY OF THE SERVICES, ANY ASSOCIATED SOFTWARE, OR IN RELATION TO AVAILABILITY, SUITABILITY OR MAINTENANCE OF THE SATELLITE SYSTEMS USED BY THE SPOT PRODUCT TO TRANSMIT DATA TRANSMISSIONS, INCLUDING SOS EMERGENCY SIGNALS AND/OR SPOTASSIST HELP TRANSMISSIONS.  SPOT AND THE SERVICE PROVIDERS MAKE NO WARRANTIES RESPECTING ANY HARM THAT MAY BE CAUSED BY TRANSMISSION OF A COMPUTER VIRUS, HACKING BY A THIRD PARTY, WORM, TIME BOMB, LOGIC BOMB, OR OTHER SUCH COMPUTER PROGRAM.  NO ORAL OR WRITTEN INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY ANY DISTRIBUTOR, RESELLER OR ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY.  YOU ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE TO YOUR PRODUCT, OTHER DEVICE, OR LOSS OF DATA THAT RESULTS FROM USE OF THE SERVICE.  THE SOFTWARE IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, OR ANY OTHER ACTIVITIES IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF THE SOFTWARE COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.  SPOT AND THE SERVICE PROVIDERS MAKE NO WARRANTY IN RELATION TO THE AVAILABILITY, SUITABILITY OR ACCURACY OF THE SERVICES OR IN RELATION TO AVAILABILITY, SUITABILITY OR MAINTENANCE OF THE SATELLITE SYSTEMS USED BY THE SPOT PRODUCT TO TRANSMIT DATA TRANSMISSIONS, INCLUDING SOS EMERGENCY SIGNALS AND/OR SPOT ASSIST HELP TRANSMISSIONS.

TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, SPOT AND ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS AND THEIR AFFILIATES, AND THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, AGENTS AND SUPPLIERS HEREBY EXPRESSLY EXCLUDE AND DISCLAIM ANY LIABILITY FOR ANY DAMAGES OR CLAIMS, INCLUDING INJURY OR DEATH, AND ANY INDIRECT, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL, RELIANCE, EXEMPLARY OR PUNITIVE LOSS, DAMAGE, COSTS OR EXPENSES (INCLUDING LOSS OF INCOME, MEDICAL AND OTHER EXPENSES, LOSS OF GUIDANCE, CARE AND COMPANIONSHIP) WHICH MAY ARISE OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROVISION OF THE SPOT PRODUCT OR SERVICES (INCLUDING ANY DELAY IN PROVIDING OR FAILURE TO PROVIDE THE SERVICES) OR ITS USE BY YOU OR BY ANOTHER PERSON WHETHER OR NOT AUTHORIZED BY YOU TO UTILIZE THE SERVICES. SPOT AND ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS AND THEIR AFFILIATES, AND THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, AGENTS AND SUPPLIERS EXCLUDE ALL LIABILITY, WHETHER RESULTING FROM CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING LIABILITY FOR NEGLIGIENCE OR BREACH OF STATUTORY DUTY) OR OTHERWISE IN RESPECT OF ANY LOSS, DAMAGE, COSTS, EXPENSES OR OTHER CLAIMS RESULTING FROM THE ACTS OR OMISSIONS OF SUCH PARTIES, FOR ANY FAULTS, FAILURES OR INADEQUACIES OF THE SATELLITE SYSTEMS, THESE SERVICES OR THE SOS EMERGENCY MONITORING AND RESPONSE PROVIDED BY GEOS, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY FAILURE OR DELAY IN THE PROVISION OF SERVICES CAUSED BY:

6.1.2   FAILURE, DELAY OR INACCURACY OF THE GPS SATELLITES IN PROVIDING LOCATION COORDINATES; OR

6.1.3   FAILURE, DELAY OR INACCURACY OF THE SPOT PRODUCT TO PROCESS AND/OR TRANSMIT DATA TRANSMISSIONS, INCLUDING SOS EMERGENCY SIGNAL(S), SPOTASSIST TRANSMISSIONS, AND/OR LOCATION COORDINATES, TO THE GLOBALSTAR SATELLITE SYSTEM; OR

6.1.4   FAILURE OF OR DELAY IN THE GLOBALSTAR SATELLITE SYSTEM AND/OR GROUND STATIONS TO PROCESS DATA TRANSMISSIONS, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO SOS EMERGENCY SIGNAL(S), SPOTASSIST HELP TRANSMISSIONS, LOCATION COORDINATES, PREPROGRAMMED MESSAGES AND/OR GOOGLE MAPS™ DISPLAY, AND TO TRANSMIT SUCH TRANSMISSIONS TO THE IDENTIFIED POINTS OF CONTACT AND/OR IERCC AS APPROPRIATE; OR

6.1.5   FAILURE OF OR DELAY IN YOUR E-MAIL OR CELLPHONE PROVIDER TO TRANSMIT THE MESSAGE TO YOU, OR FAILURE OF OR DELAY IN THE IERCC RESPONDING TO SOS EMERGENCY SIGNAL(S), OR FAILURE OR DELAY OF THE SPOTASSIST PROVIDER (NATION SAFE DRIVERS AND/OR BOATUS) IN RESPONDING TO THE SPOTASSIST HELP TRANSMISSION; OR  

6.1.6   FAILURE OF OR DELAY IN THE DELORME EARTHMATE PN-60W GPS PRODUCT TO TRANSMIT ANY SPOT MESSAGE(S) TO THE SPOT COMMUNICATOR; OR

6.1.7   FAILURE OF OR DELAY IN YOUR SMARTPHONE TO TRANSMIT ANY SPOT MESSAGE(S) TO THE SPOT CONNECT; OR

6.1.8   FAILURE OF OR DELAY ON BEHALF OF THE SPOT SERVICE PROVIDERS TO PERFORM THE APPLICABLE SERVICES FOR WHICH EACH IS CONTRACTED; OR

6.1.9   FAILURE TO OBTAIN A CLEAR LINE OF SIGHT TOWARD THE SATELLITE SYSTEMS; OR

6.1.10 FAILURE TO PROPERLY INSTALL OR CONFIGURE THE SPOT PRODUCTS, INCLUDING SPOT HUG AND ITS ASSOCIATED DOOR, LOW VOLTAGE AND HIGH WATER SENSORS; OR

6.1.11   FAILURE OF SPOT OR ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS TO PROVIDE THE SERVICE(S), INCLUDING SOS EMERGENCY SERVICES, DUE TO THE SERVICE(S) HAVING BEEN CANCELLED PURSUANT TO SECTIONS 2.3.1, 3.4 OR 3.6; OR

6.1.12   NON-COMPATABILITY OF SPOT PRODUCTS WITH SMARTPHONE OPERATING SYSTEMS AND THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE; OR

6.1.12   FAILURE OR INADEQUACY OF POWER SUPPLY FOR SPOT PRODUCTS AND/OR ASSOCIATED PRODUCTS (INCLUDING THE DELORME EARTHMATE PN-60W GPS, THIRD-PARTY ACCESSORIES AND SMARTPHONES).

6.3    IN NO EVENT SHALL THE TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AGGREGATE LIABILITY OF SPOT AND ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS FOR ALL CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THE SERVICES OR THIS AGREEMENT EXCEED THE AMOUNT OF THE FEE FOR SERVICES PAID BY YOU.

6.4    THE LIMITATIONS IN THIS SECTION 6 SHALL APPLY TO ALL CLAIMS, DAMAGES, LOSSES, COSTS AND EXPENSES HOWSOEVER CAUSED AND WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, IN TORT, BY WAY OF NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY, OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES AND EVEN IF SUCH DAMAGES WERE REASONABLY FORESEEABLE.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 3:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

No.

This will lead to a lot more SAR runs, for people who really aren't in life threatening situations.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 3:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Sep. 24 2013, 12:16 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

No.

This will lead to a lot more SAR runs, for people who really aren't in life threatening situations.

Not necessarily with correct education at the outset when they're issued  of when the device should be used and when it should not: something that is largely missing with commercial sales (clearly that was the case in that notorious Grand Canyon fiasco). The possibility exists for additional retrieval runs (no widespread resource devouring "search" given the location inherent in the tech) but it's not hugely inevitable.

I wonder what the search expenditures total for a year for various park units? Granted compared to wildfire fighting expenses (Rim alone was over a hundred million) SAR expenses have to me borderline trivial.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 4:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 12:27 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Sep. 24 2013, 12:16 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

No.

This will lead to a lot more SAR runs, for people who really aren't in life threatening situations.

Not necessarily with correct education at the outset when they're issued  of when the device should be used and when it should not: something that is largely missing with commercial sales (clearly that was the case in that notorious Grand Canyon fiasco). The possibility exists for additional retrieval runs (no widespread resource devouring "search" given the location inherent in the tech) but it's not hugely inevitable.

I wonder what the search expenditures total for a year for various park units? Granted compared to wildfire fighting expenses (Rim alone was over a hundred million) SAR expenses have to me borderline trivial.

I would like to see some rangers (or other parks personnel) weigh in on this. I can see arguments both ways.

One thing worth noting is that Gros Morne has (in the words of that website) "[v]ariable and often extreme weather". I can see some kind of personal locator beacon being more necessary in a place like that than in the (generally) more forgiving climate of, say, the Sierra Nevada.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 4:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 1:27 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Sep. 24 2013, 12:16 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

No.

This will lead to a lot more SAR runs, for people who really aren't in life threatening situations.

Not necessarily with correct education at the outset when they're issued  of when the device should be used and when it should not: something that is largely missing with commercial sales (clearly that was the case in that notorious Grand Canyon fiasco). The possibility exists for additional retrieval runs (no widespread resource devouring "search" given the location inherent in the tech) but it's not hugely inevitable.

I wonder what the search expenditures total for a year for various park units? Granted compared to wildfire fighting expenses (Rim alone was over a hundred million) SAR expenses have to me borderline trivial.

You clearly have a higher level of faith in our fellow citizens than I do.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 4:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

That makes a lot more sense to me than some multi-page invasive questionnaire.  A lot more sense.  It seems to me like a good idea.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 4:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 3:27 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Sep. 24 2013, 12:16 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

No.

This will lead to a lot more SAR runs, for people who really aren't in life threatening situations.

Not necessarily with correct education at the outset when they're issued  of when the device should be used and when it should not: something that is largely missing with commercial sales (clearly that was the case in that notorious Grand Canyon fiasco). The possibility exists for additional retrieval runs (no widespread resource devouring "search" given the location inherent in the tech) but it's not hugely inevitable.

I wonder what the search expenditures total for a year for various park units? Granted compared to wildfire fighting expenses (Rim alone was over a hundred million) SAR expenses have to me borderline trivial.

First guy to use a PLB was a celebrity with SAR. NOAA News:

OHIO MAN SAVED BY USING PERSONAL LOCATOR BEACON - First Person to Use New Technology in the Contiguous United States

One would think that he would have acquired some knowledge about appropriate and inappropriate use of a PLB from the first experience.

Apparently all he learned was that it was a way to get a ride home.

The second time he used it they charged him with a crime.

Second Save, Same As The First?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 4:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Sep. 24 2013, 1:14 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 12:27 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Sep. 24 2013, 12:16 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Sep. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Could this be more cost effective than reactive search and rescue operations? One can buy a whole lot of beacons for the price of an hour of helicopter flight time....

No.

This will lead to a lot more SAR runs, for people who really aren't in life threatening situations.

Not necessarily with correct education at the outset when they're issued  of when the device should be used and when it should not: something that is largely missing with commercial sales (clearly that was the case in that notorious Grand Canyon fiasco). The possibility exists for additional retrieval runs (no widespread resource devouring "search" given the location inherent in the tech) but it's not hugely inevitable.

I wonder what the search expenditures total for a year for various park units? Granted compared to wildfire fighting expenses (Rim alone was over a hundred million) SAR expenses have to me borderline trivial.

I would like to see some rangers (or other parks personnel) weigh in on this. I can see arguments both ways.

One thing worth noting is that Gros Morne has (in the words of that website) "[v]ariable and often extreme weather". I can see some kind of personal locator beacon being more necessary in a place like that than in the (generally) more forgiving climate of, say, the Sierra Nevada.

Well, discussion is why I put it out there: reacting in part to the forms thread...

Yes Gros Morne is problematic, more because it's trackless and rather featureless making navigation chancy in combination with the weather. OTOH how many people have disappeared/gotten lost (and been expensively and widely searched for) in the California Sierra in the past year?

Maybe even a case by case basis: a destination of ease and they beacon isn't pressed on the group while an off trail ten day adventure gets one...
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 4:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"The second time he used it they charged him with a crime."

IIRC the people  at the Grand Canyon who abused the SPOT got cited as well.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 5:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I used to have a Spot, now I have a PLB.  I have never felt the need to use either one (knock on wood).
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(Lamebeaver @ Sep. 24 2013, 2:10 pm)
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I used to have a Spot, now I have a PLB.  I have never felt the need to use either one (knock on wood).

Yeah, PLB here since 2007, I've changed out the battery but never needed too use it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 6:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

...

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 6:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

IMHO, for what that's worth, I think the SPOT "I'm OK" feature has the potential for many "false negatives"

If I'm on a trip, and my PLB doesn't work, and I don't need it everything is fine....but if I had a SPOT, and it failed, or I lost it, or it was stolen by a marmot, etc. then people are likely to worry when I didn't check in.

OK, bad example, they'd probably throw a party if I didn't check in, but for most cases.....
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 8:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

These electronic safety devices are another part of a
safety net one can use as long as one understands
there shortcomings as some have stated above.
A couple of weeks ago the SPOT service was down
for a couple of days, what happens if one needs the
service but it is unavailable?
Can SPOT be held responsible? SPOT and SatPhone’s
need a line of site to there satellites, if you get injured
in a canyon or ravine with only a sliver of sky, forget it.
As much as Mr. Fuller despises the hard copy
form, for whatever reason, it has its place in ones safety
net, that is if one wants one, even if it serves in only
the recovery effort. Also let's not forget, all these
devices need to be activated! If your a solo hiker,
get injured, and are incapacitated you may not be
able to get to these devices or be able to activate them.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 9:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I would probably resent being required to carry one.

Maveric01, if the Spot shows a complete lack of movement for multiple days, those following it are apt to call it in.  Ask GoBlue ;)


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 9:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Rebecca,

I know folks who send messages once or maybe twice
a day. What happens when a message is sent and
it is not received back home, you will not know. If you
get injured how will they get a signal if you cannot
turn it on, or do you leave yours on all the time while
traveling taking several batteries? I see your photo
from the southwest, have you tried using any of these
devices from a slot canyon? Would like to hear from
folks who have tried, and what their success rate was?


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 9:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"devices need to be activated! If your a solo hiker,
get injured, and are incapacitated you may not be
able to get to these devices or be able to activate them."

So no seatbelt wearing in a car since if you drive off into a lake or river you might not be able to free the belt and drown?

Few guarantees in life but here's one: the safety device you aren't carrying you 100% guaranteed will not be able to use. As a solo were I to drop dead out there? My last thought won't be, damn I could have saved those ten ounces by leaving behind that PLB I'm not going to use..... OTOH an incapacitating injury that leaves me immobile but otherwise intact ? I reach for the button and save myself an up to ten day or more wait before anyone even would consider triggering a search. And keep a whole bunch of people from "searching" after that. Just ride the beam.

If it doesn't work? Well, I was in trouble either wsy.

FAQ:
http://cospas-sarsat.org
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 10:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I tend to lean against required babysitting and more towards personal responsibility.  

That said, for personal reasons I was against carrying a SPOT, however it made my folks feel better knowing I had it and they like to be able to see where I am at. I don't use the tracking feature but check in daily with an "I'm ok" message.

To the opening question, could it be more effective. I would guess maybe a wash (at best) if you figure in the amount of BS calls one would get.

No, I think I've changed my mind. Comparing travelers there to general travelers in our lower 48 might be apples to oranges... I don't like the broadbrush approach.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 10:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Fine for those who want such things but should not be mandatory.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 25 2013, 12:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

HSF,

QUOTE
So no seatbelt wearing in a car since if you
drive off into a lake or river you might not be able to
free the belt and drown?
 :(

Sorry but you missed my point, it was that having a hard
copy in conjuction with such device could be an even a
safer alternative.


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W Y O M I N G
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 11:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Any effort to make such things mandatory is likely to be done at the state level rather than at the federal level. And I don't see that we are anywhere close to that around here. The need has been exaggerated.

I'll venture to say that there will neither be a PLB/Spot requirement nor standardized "SAR form" in this state anytime soon — if ever. And while I often don't agree with the way things are done in this state, I do agree in that matter.

Of the two, I think the PLB makes more sense, but I'll continue to use my own head and make my own decisions on safety issues such as this. Thanks but no thanks to anyone who wishes to micromanage my activities.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 11:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To answer my own OP I expect "mandatory" is way too far, with a leaning toward the early bear canister effort where some natural history associations offer them for a nominal rental fee at the time of wilderness permit issuance so the program is cost neutral at worst. Get some real world experience out there amongst the casual backcountry visitor's that have an interest and see what developed.

And for similar reasons, it's the occasional, probably less experienced visitor that would be disinclined to incur the "extra" expense of the full purchase price of either item who are the very user-group who may be more in need of such assistance with both adequate bear food hangs and backcountry navigation acquired by doing skills in many ways.

Helicopters, infra-red heat imaging systems and remotely operated drones are all brought to bear on today's lost backcountry visitor so why not this tech? Can't see a reason not to at least explore it.

As to the type, I'd be inclined to one of the SPOT devices as it could be simply directed to the local agency (say the local national park backcountry office) for evaluation and response by the company.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 12:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(maverick01 @ Sep. 24 2013, 9:00 pm)
QUOTE
HSF,

QUOTE
So no seatbelt wearing in a car since if you
drive off into a lake or river you might not be able to
free the belt and drown?
 :(

Sorry but you missed my point, it was that having a hard
copy in conjuction with such device could be an even a
safer alternative.

Thanks for the correction and I agree, multiple backups makes a lot of safety sense.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 12:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(maverick01 @ Sep. 24 2013, 6:48 pm)
QUOTE
Hi Rebecca,

I know folks who send messages once or maybe twice
a day. What happens when a message is sent and
it is not received back home, you will not know. If you
get injured how will they get a signal if you cannot
turn it on, or do you leave yours on all the time while
traveling taking several batteries? I see your photo
from the southwest, have you tried using any of these
devices from a slot canyon? Would like to hear from
folks who have tried, and what their success rate was?

I don't use them.  We backpack as a family and have never seen the need for the added weight.  If I did what GoBlue does, yeah, I'd carry one.  And when his stopped moving two years ago, SAR got called.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 12:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RebeccaD @ Sep. 26 2013, 10:45 am)
QUOTE
And when his stopped moving two years ago, SAR got called.

Just to clarify, it didn't so much "stop moving" as just stopped transmitting.  It got dislodged from the backpack somewhere in a half-mile of thick brush in a deep forest on my second day on the island, presumably landed face-down somewhere, and wasn't heard from again.

When no messages got out in 2-3 days, eventually SAR got called (no one frets about not hearing a message for an evening, as maverick01 alludes to).  I wish I'd given clearer instructions to home as for what to do in that case.  I found out later there'd been some discussion among the SAR members, with several arguing that no checks need to be made unless I was late (which I wasn't... I was on track to arrive back in Sitka a full day earlier than expected).  I wish those members' opinions had won out.  It wouldn't have been much of a story then.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 2:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

People use a spot so their loved ones won't worry about them.  But when the SPOT stops transmitting for whatever reason, their loved ones are told not to worry about them until after their scheduled return date has passed

I get that, but if the loved ones can "not worry" after the SPOT stops transmitting, then why can't the "not worry" without the SPOT in the first place?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 29 2013, 12:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am considering a plb simply because I am an old dude going solo and if I fall I want someone to come help me get up.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 29 2013, 6:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

A PLB in the backcountry is a good idea- even if you aren't alone. If someone has a serious injury and your two days from the trailhead it could make a big difference.  I'm usually solo. I carry the ACR ResQlink+ because it floats, and I use it on my boat as well.    It doesn't track or send I'm ok messages, you only use it if you are in serious trouble.  Very little chance of sending out a false alert.  

I don't think a PLB should be required, but I highly recommend it.  Especially if you are solo.  Get a SPOT, PLB, what ever fits your need.


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