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Topic: THOUGHTS ON THIS?, NYC MOTORCYCLE INCIDENT< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 7:44 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I read about this yesterday and am curious what everyone thinks about what happened.  I know we have several folks in the forums who ride, I'm particularly interested in what your opinions on this incident are.

IF YOU WERE DRIVING THE SUV, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?  IF YOU WERE ONE OF THE BIKERS?


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 8:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If I were driving the SUV?  When they initially surrounded me I would have slowed down till they were gone.  I'd never be one of the bikers.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 9:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The video only shows what transpired AFTER the initial contact. No one has said what started the whole affair, and what got all the bikers so worked up. The idiot who positioned his bike in front of the vehicle had to have a serious reason, or is incredibly stupid. No one would put themselves, and their bike, in that kind of jeopardy for no reason. Also, no one who has any experience on a motorcycle would get that close to a 3500-4000 pound moving vehicle unless they had a very good reason. I have been hit by cars while riding, and I have had some really close calls caused by drivers who had no idea I was there. This is one of those videos that show only a part of the event. Hopefully, the investigation will discover the whole story. Until then, we can only speculate.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 9:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We do know that several bikers were arrested, and their bikes impounded.  The driver of the SUV was not ticketed.  I think we can draw certain conclusions from these facts.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 9:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

beemerphill,
True, it only shows what it shows and we do not know what transpired prior to what is shown on the video.  Based strictly on what is seen in the video (from my perspective anyway) the bike rider was intentionally trying to irritate the driver of the SUV (again, we don't know if the driver of the SUV had brake checked the bike or not or what else may have transpired prior to this).  The rider obviously misjudged the SUV drivers ability (or willingness?) to stop quickly enough when he (the biker) break checked the SUV.  Either way, the bike was hit, the rider (per the article) was uninjured.

I'm interested in how people would have proceeded from that point, the point where the collision occurred.  IMO, once the collision occurred, the best course of action on from either party would have been to call 911 and report the incident and wait for the authorities to sort it out but that obviously didn't happen.  So, if you're the driver of the SUV with  your wife and toddler in the vehicle with you and your window is getting smashed in, what do you think you'd do?  If you're the bikers and one of your own gets hit (intentionally or not we can not determine from the video) does that justify the actions taken by the bikers?

As TDale stated, slow down until they leave.  What if they don't leave?  

If I were surrounded like that (with my wife and children in the car) the first thing would be to slow down.  If they don't leave, call 911 and stay on the phone.  If I run into one of their bikes because they break checked me from only a couple of feet in front of my bumper and they mob my car as they did in the video, I would do whatever I needed to do to attempt to get my family to safety.

I'm really curious what the video shows in the moments leading up to this...


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 9:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I happen to agree with beemer.  We need to find out what started all of this.  I think the bikers that have been arrested were ones the police could identify from the video as having taken part in the beating.  What caused a man to drive over the bikers we do not know, or what caused them to be so angry with the driver in the first place.  These bikers did not seem to be the movie gang stereotype, picking someone out at random.  I would hold the driver of the Range Rover at least as responsible for the entire incident.

In the end, I would hold the driver responsible for the injuries to the riders, and for intentionally running over them.  That alone must be worth some jail time.  


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 9:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If they don't leave.  Then they can follow me to the nearest police station.

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(ol-zeke @ Oct. 02 2013, 7:48 am)
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In the end, I would hold the driver responsible for the injuries to the riders, and for intentionally running over them.  That alone must be worth some jail time.

The Police seem to disagree.  Don't you wonder why?  I'd say the few facts we do know do not agree with the assumptions you seem to be making.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A little more video here:  CBS NEWS STORY

From this video IMHO, the SUV driver had adequate time to slow or stop to avoid contact with the bike.  This video also seems to show that the initial reaction of the bikers might not have been as violent as the video on yahoo leads one to think.

Still, I'd like to know what transpired prior to what we can see.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Interesting that the biker with the Go-Pro(?) took video of everything EXCEPT whatever started the encounter.

What one person will shrug off can cause many to riot. It really depends on what led up to the point of the bikers stopping the SUV (the idiot who pulled in front and slowed down deserved to get hit) in the first place before the driver then floored it and ran over a few. If he was in genuine fear for his and his family's lives, then he was fully justified in using whatever deadly means he available in defense.

The cops arresting bikers and not the SUV driver is very telling.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 02 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
Interesting that the biker with the Go-Pro(?) took video of everything EXCEPT whatever started the encounter.

What one person will shrug off can cause many to riot. It really depends on what led up to the point of the bikers stopping the SUV (the idiot who pulled in front and slowed down deserved to get hit) in the first place before the driver then floored it and ran over a few. If he was in genuine fear for his and his family's lives, then he was fully justified in using whatever deadly means he available in defense.

The cops arresting bikers and not the SUV driver is very telling.

I wonder if the police have the full, unedited video including what transpired prior to the collision...

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've encountered such groups in NJ, including about two weeks ago (perhaps even some of the same people).    I just let them by and ignore the ones who try to screw with me.  Some of their behavior will certainly provoke incidents with less patient and tolerant people. People will get hurt, too, even without any confrontations.  A couple of those riders have died recently on our local roads.  In  those cases, the other riders fled while their playmate died in the street.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 11:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A miscalculation on the biker's part: the 2 year old child's presence no doubt changed the equation significantly. I know it would for me.

Most group rides I've encountered have been of the open road Harley sort and at worst we've exchanged head nods. But the cafe urban racer sorts seem to be inclined to a lot more harassment of "civilians" which limits options. Though on most freeways slowing down will drop me out of the back of anything I want out of.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 11:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While it's true, we don't know what transpired prior to the incident, judging from the way the pack of motorcycles was riding, they were acting anyway but responsible.  From what I've seen, the fault lies almost all with the bikers.  It's easy to imagine a man riding with his family  becoming extremely upset and panicking when surrounded by a group like this.  Regardless of what happened, pulling someone out of their car and beating them so severely is never an acceptable reaction.

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(hikerjer @ Oct. 02 2013, 11:24 am)
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 Regardless of what happened, pulling someone out of their car and beating them so severely is never an acceptable reaction.

^This.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 12:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

From my understanding, the bikers were running rolling road blocks so other members of the group could do tricks on their bikes. One cop I saw on the news said they had gotten 200 calls about this group of riders.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 12:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I agree with hikerjer:

1) pulling someone out of their car and beating them is unacceptable

2) forcing someone to stop on a highway is not acceptable either, doing so is risky, and while I would try not to hit someone doing this, I might not maintain adequate stopping distance, so if they did stop too abruptly I might not be able to stop.  Whose fault that is legally I am not sure, but in a way it was them who closed the space between us for no reason.  There is no reason to do this, even if the driver tried to hit one of them (probably more of a reason not to do this).

3)  Running over this guy.  That is a bit tougher.  I am not sure I believe he was just helping his fellow biker.  If this guy feared for his life he would have some justification for for driving away, the question is were they yelling threats, showing weapons etc.  already bashing on window etc.  If just an accident, this group should not surround the  guy but exchange info etc. like a normal.

4) One article mentioned that some of them belonged to a gang, etc.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 3:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Oct. 02 2013, 11:24 am)
QUOTE
While it's true, we don't know what transpired prior to the incident, judging from the way the pack of motorcycles was riding, they were acting anyway but responsible.  From what I've seen, the fault lies almost all with the bikers.  It's easy to imagine a man riding with his family  becoming extremely upset and panicking when surrounded by a group like this.  Regardless of what happened, pulling someone out of their car and beating them so severely is never an acceptable reaction.

+

It is pretty easy to conclude based on the footage that the motorcyclists do not possess good judgment. It is hard to imagine a situation where such vigilantism could be justified, especially against a driver with a small child. The vast majority of parents with young children in the car attempt to avoid risk, not escalate it.

But obviously we don't know what transpired before the footage.

I posted the video on another board in a thread about road cyclists (my preferred exercise/pastime) and their perceived behaviors of entitlement on the road. One poster advocated vehicular violence against riders who do not observe the laws of safety and courtesy while riding. Needless to say, the guy was shot down fast. But it illustrates some of the whacko mentalities out there.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 4:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm not sure how much of the backstory has gone national, so it's probably worth a few words.  This group has a history of misbehavior in NYC and organized big disruptions in Times Square in 2011 and 2012.  The NYPD was expecting a repeat and thought they had successfully averted it in a crackdown that resulted in 15 arrests and confiscation of 55 motorcycles (I'm not sure on what grounds) prior to and unrelated to this incident.  NYPD Chief Ray Kelly went into some detail in a press conference yesterday, but I haven't seen that referenced in some of the news accounts.
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(dayhiker9 @ Oct. 02 2013, 10:57 am)
QUOTE
 If this guy feared for his life he would have some justification for for driving away, the question is were they yelling threats, showing weapons etc.  already bashing on window etc.  If just an accident, this group should not surround the  guy but exchange info etc. like a normal.

News reports indicate that the first time that the SUV was surrounded, one of his tires was slashed. Observing this, he MAY have panicked and gunned the vehicle.
Obviously, as others have said, initial judgments may turn out to be incorrect. But the entire story should eventually come out.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 4:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think the bikers knew what they were doing.  The episode was intentionally filmed by one of their members and then uploaded to You Tube.  If the SUV driver started or contributed to the starting of the incident I think that would have been filmed and posted as well.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 5:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Penny and I are both 2nd gen Harley heads. We ride with groups that at times have 200 - 300 bikes in them. If we had riders acting like these guys did, we take care of it ourselves and fast.
As for the guy driving the SUV. Not sure of what happened but at the point they was working on getting him out he had no idea of what they was going to do. He had his wife and kids with him. He had every right to do what every he needed to, to keep the safe.
It's easy to say what we may have done in his place. But I know this, I'll do what every I need to keep my family safe. My training didn't cover a lot of running.
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I am the most easy going passive person you could hope to meet. But the one time I was moved rapidly to violence, indeed would have murdered if I'd had the ability was when my three year old son was shoved so hard he flew a couple feet backward by a kneeling photographer. Based on that reaction, I know I'd drive over anything or anyone in my way, without thinking about it, if I seriously thought my child's life was threatened. I might feel horrid for the rest of my life but when your kid is attacked you just react.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 8:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

My thoughts ... let the authorities sort this out.  

According to the report, the driver of the SUV was treated and released so he seems to have not been injured that severely.  One motorcyclist was paralyzed from being run over by the SUV, which happened before the driver of the SUV was attacked.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 8:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I made a post on this with the full video recorded by one of the bikers.

Toe Cutter and Johhny the Boy

But I will reply in this thread.

[ninja edit] Vid has been pulled by user [/ninja edit]



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(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 02 2013, 8:30 am)
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We do know that several bikers were arrested, and their bikes impounded.  The driver of the SUV was not ticketed.  I think we can draw certain conclusions from these facts.

This was just a small pack of the whole bikers get-together.

I would imagine that several riders were arrested (probably for traffic warrants) and bikes impounded.


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(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 02 2013, 9:22 am)
QUOTE
Interesting that the biker with the Go-Pro(?) took video of everything EXCEPT whatever started the encounter.

What one person will shrug off can cause many to riot. It really depends on what led up to the point of the bikers stopping the SUV (the idiot who pulled in front and slowed down deserved to get hit) in the first place before the driver then floored it and ran over a few. If he was in genuine fear for his and his family's lives, then he was fully justified in using whatever deadly means he available in defense.

The cops arresting bikers and not the SUV driver is very telling.

Its not a GoPro. The motard rider is using a different camera.

However there ARE other cameras within the group.

What led up to it?

Hmmmm, the RR driver not keeping a safe distance from the rider in front of him. Even though the rider was slowing down, he was not breaking the law. The RR driver running down and knocking off the rider is what caused the whole group to stop.

The rider that was knocked off may not have been injured but was mad enough to ask the driver 'wtf?'.

The driver instead of doing what you should do at a accident scene, decided that running over several other people was justified.

That is what brought on his troubles.


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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 02 2013, 10:20 am)
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Most group rides I've encountered have been of the open road Harley sort and at worst we've exchanged head nods. But the cafe urban racer sorts seem to be inclined to a lot more harassment of "civilians" which limits options. Though on most freeways slowing down will drop me out of the back of anything I want out of.

and those harley riders tend not to wear any type of protective gear and some have less riding experience than most sports bike riders in the video.

The cafe racer group are nothing like the riders in the video. Cafe racers ride different types of bikes (which are totally uncomfortable to ride in town) than the 'fantastic plastics' and motards......and they tend to be on the older side....aka those who can remember the european racers.


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(cgaphiker @ Oct. 02 2013, 11:04 am)
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From my understanding, the bikers were running rolling road blocks so other members of the group could do tricks on their bikes. One cop I saw on the news said they had gotten 200 calls about this group of riders.

I dont know if they were stunting or not. I didnt see any on the video.

The group was actually going somewhere to meet up with other bikers.

I wonder how many of those 200 callers were more upset that they couldnt speed down the road cuz it was full of 'Wild Ones'?


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(frihauf @ Oct. 02 2013, 3:43 pm)
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I think the bikers knew what they were doing.  The episode was intentionally filmed by one of their members and then uploaded to You Tube.  If the SUV driver started or contributed to the starting of the incident I think that would have been filmed and posted as well.

Ben

They were doing what the RR driver was doing.

Going down the road, minding their business.

As far as picking fights with four wheelers is concerned, you dont ride, do you?

Btw, it was loaded up on LiveLeak as it made its rounds on the bike forums.


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