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Topic: When Johnny comes marching home....< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: May 24 2014, 10:03 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Welcome him.

Thank him.

Take care of him.

Thats the least we can do.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 24 2014, 10:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Amen.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 12:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Agreed... but 13 years on wouldn't it be better if Johnny got a clue and didn't go marching off?

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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 9:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Raznation @ May 24 2014, 10:03 pm)
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Welcome him.

Thank him.

Take care of him.

Thats the least we can do.

Thanks Raz.   We really need to honor and take care of those who have served in our wars.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 9:47 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 12:18 am)
QUOTE
Agreed... but 13 years on wouldn't it be better if Johnny got a clue and didn't go marching off?

As one of those who went marching off, I would appreciate if people would differentiate between Johnny and those elected officials who determine when and where Johnny goes marching off.

Johnny is a hell of a lot more intelligent than some give him/her credit for and believe me, Johnny has a clue...  Johnny wishes the American people would get a clue and be more active politically and offer a voice of reason when the politicians start hearing war drums.

While I agree with the premise stated above, I think it misdirected.  Like I said, Johnny most definitely has clue, those elected by the American people, I'm not so sure about some times.

And I agree Raz, thanks for posting.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 10:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 12:18 am)
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Agreed... but 13 years on wouldn't it be better if Johnny got a clue and didn't go marching off?

A more ignorant statement cannot be conceived.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 11:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(retired reddog @ May 25 2014, 7:47 am)
QUOTE

(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 12:18 am)
QUOTE
Agreed... but 13 years on wouldn't it be better if Johnny got a clue and didn't go marching off?

As one of those who went marching off, I would appreciate if people would differentiate between Johnny and those elected officials who determine when and where Johnny goes marching off.

Johnny is a hell of a lot more intelligent than some give him/her credit for and believe me, Johnny has a clue...  Johnny wishes the American people would get a clue and be more active politically and offer a voice of reason when the politicians start hearing war drums.

While I agree with the premise stated above, I think it misdirected.  Like I said, Johnny most definitely has clue, those elected by the American people, I'm not so sure about some times.

And I agree Raz, thanks for posting.

My post was not directed at those in active military service prior to 9/11... it's directed to those that joined post 9/11.

A more misdirected thing I can't think of. It only empowers the imperial presidency that has become the norm post 9/11. My view is it's one thing to be young and dumb with a shallow and misdirected idea of patriotism, and another to have no choice to participate as a career military man or woman.

And I am active politically and have been dead-set against these misdirected wars since Cheney gave his VFW speech.

But I believe we should have a draft military, not a volunteer military. We'd be far less likely to jump into idiotic wars with a draft.

Of course we all should honor those that have fallen. That's a given. "Johnny Marching Home" IS NOT what Memorial Day is about, it's about Johnny Laying In A Grave... the OP apparently doesn't know that, and apparently no one else on this thread does either...


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 11:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 11:05 am)
QUOTE

(retired reddog @ May 25 2014, 7:47 am)
QUOTE

(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 12:18 am)
QUOTE
Agreed... but 13 years on wouldn't it be better if Johnny got a clue and didn't go marching off?

As one of those who went marching off, I would appreciate if people would differentiate between Johnny and those elected officials who determine when and where Johnny goes marching off.

Johnny is a hell of a lot more intelligent than some give him/her credit for and believe me, Johnny has a clue...  Johnny wishes the American people would get a clue and be more active politically and offer a voice of reason when the politicians start hearing war drums.

While I agree with the premise stated above, I think it misdirected.  Like I said, Johnny most definitely has clue, those elected by the American people, I'm not so sure about some times.

And I agree Raz, thanks for posting.

My post was not directed at those in active military service prior to 9/11... it's directed to those that joined post 9/11.

A more misdirected thing I can't think of. It only empowers the imperial presidency that has become the norm post 9/11. My view is it's one thing to be young and dumb with a shallow and misdirected idea of patriotism, and another to have no choice to participate as a career military man or woman.

And I am active politically and have been dead-set against these misdirected wars since Cheney gave his VFW speech.

But I believe we should have a draft military, not a volunteer military. We'd be far less likely to jump into idiotic wars with a draft.

Of course we all should honor those that have fallen. That's a given. "Johnny Marching Home" IS NOT what Memorial Day is about, it's about Johnny Laying In A Grave... the OP apparently doesn't know that, and apparently no one else on this thread does either...

I respectfully disagree with your statement about service members who joined post 9/11.  And I thank God that those men and women feel a sense of duty to protect your freedom to voice your opinion.

You are correct with your point that Memorial Day is about those who have fallen.  The origins of Memorial Day date back to the Civil War and an effort to remember those who had fallen.

As for your lack of understanding as to why men and women would join a post 9/11 military, no amount of words from myself or anyone else who serves or has served will probably be able to make you understand.  Like the old saying goes, "If you were there, I don't need to explain it; if you weren't, I can't explain it to you."  

Not for fame or reward
Not for place or for rank
Not lured by ambition
Or goaded by necessity
But in simple
Obedience to duty
As they understood it
These men suffered all
Sacrificed all
Dared all-and died


From the Confederate Memorial, Arlington National Cemetary


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 1:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(retired reddog @ May 25 2014, 11:31 am)
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From the Confederate Memorial, Arlington National Cemetary

With all due respect, the Confederacy was hardly a cause worth fighting for.   I don't mean to  antagonize any one, but not all causes are justifiable enough to go to war over.  In fact, damn few are.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 2:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Jer, I agree with you in regards to the Confederacy and very few causes being worth going to war over.  To my knowledge though, the U.S. military has never ordered itself into combat.  I do believe that responsibility rests with the elected civilian leadership of the nation  

The point I was attempting to make was that those men, just as the men and women of today, do what they do more out of a sense of duty to something bigger than themselves, not out of some misguided quest for glory or some misguided sense of patriotism.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 2:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 11:05 am)
QUOTE

(retired reddog @ May 25 2014, 7:47 am)
QUOTE

(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 12:18 am)
QUOTE
Agreed... but 13 years on wouldn't it be better if Johnny got a clue and didn't go marching off?

As one of those who went marching off, I would appreciate if people would differentiate between Johnny and those elected officials who determine when and where Johnny goes marching off.

Johnny is a hell of a lot more intelligent than some give him/her credit for and believe me, Johnny has a clue...  Johnny wishes the American people would get a clue and be more active politically and offer a voice of reason when the politicians start hearing war drums.

While I agree with the premise stated above, I think it misdirected.  Like I said, Johnny most definitely has clue, those elected by the American people, I'm not so sure about some times.

And I agree Raz, thanks for posting.

My post was not directed at those in active military service prior to 9/11... it's directed to those that joined post 9/11.

A more misdirected thing I can't think of. It only empowers the imperial presidency that has become the norm post 9/11. My view is it's one thing to be young and dumb with a shallow and misdirected idea of patriotism, and another to have no choice to participate as a career military man or woman.

And I am active politically and have been dead-set against these misdirected wars since Cheney gave his VFW speech.

But I believe we should have a draft military, not a volunteer military. We'd be far less likely to jump into idiotic wars with a draft.

Of course we all should honor those that have fallen. That's a given. "Johnny Marching Home" IS NOT what Memorial Day is about, it's about Johnny Laying In A Grave... the OP apparently doesn't know that, and apparently no one else on this thread does either...

Apprently if you joined the military after 9/11 you are young and dumb with a shallow misdiirected idea of patriotism.  If you joined on 9/10, you are not that.  

I was drafted and sent to Viet Nam, a worthy war indeed.

I was spit on by ignorant people just like you when I returned.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 3:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Volunteer or draftee, makes no difference to me.

You are my heroes.

Thank you.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 3:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Figures this topic would turn into something similar to TPA, but it didn't need to.  I think all of us would say we should to provide the care our returning vets need.

It doesn't matter if it was a war we believed in, or not.  It also doesn't matter if we have an all volunteer military, or a draft.  Yes, we need to reel in the politicians, and stop sending young people off to die in wars that we don't belong in, but we differ on which ones fit our definitions.  

I was just barely too young to go to Nam, thankfully.  I was in the other group of people, the protestors.  terrible things happened between the 2 groups, and I am not proud of some of those things.  No one should be spit on for serving their misguided country.  

I think the point of not joining was to emphasize our choices. No politician can send an army to war if there isn't one willing to follow orders.  It is the duty of us all to ensure those giving the orders have the best interests of this country in their minds and hearts, not just sending people off to do their bidding because those higher ups feel something has to be done.  We, the US, should not be the world's policeman.  

If this doesn't make it to TPA soon, I will be surprised.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 4:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's sad that any time anyone posts a topic thanking the military for their service someone feels the urge to blame the members of the military for the policies of the government.  I don't believe the OP had anything to do with the policies of the United States but rather to do with the treatment of those who are tasked with enforcing said policies.

And yes, as sad as it may be, I feel this thread will be in TPA soon although there is nothing political about the OP.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 4:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What just about anyone can do:
- Say "Hello - thank you for your service."
- Pick up his or her check at the airport restaurant (but maybe not at the bar).
- Thank her or his parent (recognized by a bumper sticker).
- Don't vote for war-mongers (but recognize that war is sometimes necessary).
- Especially don't vote for chickensht war-monger "patriots" who NEVER served (that would be close to 100% of them).
- Visit a vet at the VA. Do it again.
- Don't expect or ask for war stories.

And I'm sure there is more.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 5:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And save the sympathy for someone who wants it.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 5:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(retired reddog @ May 25 2014, 9:31 am)
QUOTE
I respectfully disagree with your statement about service members who joined post 9/11.  And I thank God that those men and women feel a sense of duty to protect your freedom to voice your opinion.

You are correct with your point that Memorial Day is about those who have fallen.  The origins of Memorial Day date back to the Civil War and an effort to remember those who had fallen.

As for your lack of understanding as to why men and women would join a post 9/11 military, no amount of words from myself or anyone else who serves or has served will probably be able to make you understand.  Like the old saying goes, "If you were there, I don't need to explain it; if you weren't, I can't explain it to you."  

Firstly, no one in this century has fought a war that protects my freedom to voice my opinion nor in the last century either... the war that gave me the right to voice my opinion was fought in the 1700's.

Secondly, saying you're for veterans is like saying "love a puppy." Who's against that? It's the most banal sort of sentiment. Of course we all are for our soldiers... I feel damned sorry for everyone of them.

It's misguided patriotism that has empowered our current government. I'm not questioning the sincerity, I'm saying it's misdirected and ultimately enhances and establishes the militaristic direction of this country, and furthers the trend of undeclared/illegal wars, while continuing to empower the presidency in a non-constitutional fashion.

We need mandatory military service for everyone of us... senators and congressman's kids included. It would go a long way to ending the sort of nonsense we're involved in in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Everyone should have skin in the game, not just a few.

The military doesn't want it... they'd rather exploit the undeveloped and sentimental patriotism of the young and underprivileged.

I truly believe we're at a crisis point in our history where we equate patriotism and militarism. Nothing could be further from the truth, bu the military fosters the notion very successfully.

Sad what this great nation has become... not saying we don't need a military, it's a dangerous world. BUT, we all have a responsibility to object to its illegal/unconstitutional use. I have the unpopular view that joining up in this era undermines the nation rather than helps it.


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(Raznation @ May 24 2014, 10:03 pm)
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Welcome him.

Thank him.

Take care of him.

Thats the least we can do.

Agree
and as a 17 year old kid, I don't think I had a clue.
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(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 5:56 pm)
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Firstly, no one in this century has fought a war that protects my freedom to voice my opinion nor in the last century either... the war that gave me the right to voice my opinion was fought in the 1700's.

You're probably correct...  Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would NEVER have invaded North America had they succeeded in conquering all of Europe and Asia.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 8:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

l think you're right, although I detect a hint of sarcasm.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  Neither Japan or Germany had designs on North America during WWII.  However, I do believe WWII was one of the very few justifiable wars this nation has fought i it's history.  Although  given the current situation on the Korean peninsula, one has to think long and hard on that one. Afghanistan is far too complicated to yet pass judgement on our initial involvement but certainly our time there has passed.  We've become nothing more than an army of occupation.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 25 2014, 8:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BradMT @ May 25 2014, 5:56 pm)
QUOTE

(retired reddog @ May 25 2014, 9:31 am)
QUOTE
I respectfully disagree with your statement about service members who joined post 9/11.  And I thank God that those men and women feel a sense of duty to protect your freedom to voice your opinion.

You are correct with your point that Memorial Day is about those who have fallen.  The origins of Memorial Day date back to the Civil War and an effort to remember those who had fallen.

As for your lack of understanding as to why men and women would join a post 9/11 military, no amount of words from myself or anyone else who serves or has served will probably be able to make you understand.  Like the old saying goes, "If you were there, I don't need to explain it; if you weren't, I can't explain it to you."  

Firstly, no one in this century has fought a war that protects my freedom to voice my opinion nor in the last century either... the war that gave me the right to voice my opinion was fought in the 1700's.

Secondly, saying you're for veterans is like saying "love a puppy." Who's against that? It's the most banal sort of sentiment. Of course we all are for our soldiers... I feel damned sorry for everyone of them.

It's misguided patriotism that has empowered our current government. I'm not questioning the sincerity, I'm saying it's misdirected and ultimately enhances and establishes the militaristic direction of this country, and furthers the trend of undeclared/illegal wars, while continuing to empower the presidency in a non-constitutional fashion.

We need mandatory military service for everyone of us... senators and congressman's kids included. It would go a long way to ending the sort of nonsense we're involved in in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Everyone should have skin in the game, not just a few.

The military doesn't want it... they'd rather exploit the undeveloped and sentimental patriotism of the young and underprivileged.

I truly believe we're at a crisis point in our history where we equate patriotism and militarism. Nothing could be further from the truth, bu the military fosters the notion very successfully.

Sad what this great nation has become... not saying we don't need a military, it's a dangerous world. BUT, we all have a responsibility to object to its illegal/unconstitutional use. I have the unpopular view that joining up in this era undermines the nation rather than helps it.

I pity you.  You cannot express your opinion without spitting on those who serve you in the military.
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(Cou_Rouge @ May 25 2014, 8:08 pm)
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I pity you.  You cannot express your opinion without spitting on those who serve you in the military.

Look, you're free to express you're opinions here but there is no need to personally disparage some one who sees things in a different context than you. I thought that was the main reason we had a military - to  protect our freedom to openly discuss our views. Or do you think it's only to protect those who agree with you?  Brad is one of the most thoughtful and respectful posters on these boards and I do believe you owe him an apology.  Reserve your pity for those who need it.

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(hikerjer @ May 25 2014, 8:03 pm)
QUOTE
l think you're right, although I detect a hint of sarcasm.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  Neither Japan or Germany had designs on North America during WWII.  However, I do believe WWII was one of the very few justifiable wars this nation has fought i it's history.  Although  given the current situation on the Korean peninsula, one has to think long and hard on that one. Afghanistan is far too complicated to yet pass judgement on our initial involvement but certainly our time there has passed.  We've become nothing more than an army of occupation.

My list of U.S. wars that needed to be fought:

War of Independence

War of 1812

Civil War

Indian Wars

World War I - maybe, but pretty "iffy"

World War II

Korea

Cold War

Grenada

Desert Storm

Afghanistan and Iraq - but probably not the nation building part after regime change.

It is Congress' decision ultimately if we prosecute a war.   During a soldier's term of service, it is a soldier's duty to go where sent.

It was once said:

"I am an American soldier.  I go where I'm told.  I fight where I go.  I win where I fight."
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(hikerjer @ May 25 2014, 1:58 pm)
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(retired reddog @ May 25 2014, 11:31 am)
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From the Confederate Memorial, Arlington National Cemetary

With all due respect, the Confederacy was hardly a cause worth fighting for.   I don't mean to  antagonize any one, but not all causes are justifiable enough to go to war over.  In fact, damn few are.

jer and BradMT...................the War of Northern Aggression is despised by most here.
But what I am amazed by is (and I am afraid to give out an idea to others) is that there hasn't been a uproar by this administration, a civil rights group, or other liberal groups suggesting that the Confederate Memorial be torn down and the graves of "these traitors" be dug up and be sent to the state they are from or thrown out to sea and any form of mention of the Confederacy or emblems of such be outlawed...................I could see this happening in my life time.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 26 2014, 9:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ May 25 2014, 9:15 pm)
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(Cou_Rouge @ May 25 2014, 8:08 pm)
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I pity you.  You cannot express your opinion without spitting on those who serve you in the military.

Look, you're free to express you're opinions here but there is no need to personally disparage some one who sees things in a different context than you. I thought that was the main reason we had a military - to  protect our freedom to openly discuss our views. Or do you think it's only to protect those who agree with you?  Brad is one of the most thoughtful and respectful posters on these boards and I do believe you owe him an apology.  Reserve your pity for those who need it.

I am outraged that a post on memorial day would slur our service men and women as:

"young and dumb with a shallow and misdirected idea of patriotism"

Thoughtful and respectful poster or Verbal Spit?
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PostIcon Posted on: May 26 2014, 9:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You know, sometimes people say things you don't like or disagree with. Part of life. You'll just have to get over it or just be civil about it. Wrapping yourself in the flag and righteous indignation never gets anyone anywhere.

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"Too often I have met men who boast only of how many miles they've traveled and not of what they've seen."  -  Louis L'Amour
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PostIcon Posted on: May 26 2014, 9:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Raz,
Thanks for the post. I understand what you are saying, and appreciate it. It is easy to get into the politics of war, and we all have strong feelings about it. This thread should not sink into a pissing contest about those feelings. Let's all remember what the day is about.
Thanks again.

:)  :)  :)
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PostIcon Posted on: May 26 2014, 6:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not that there is a duty to stay with the intent or spirit of the OP, but the post was respectful and apolitical - and I think it was made in conjunction with Memorial Day. "...young and dumb with a shallow and misdirected idea of patriotism" was disrespectful. There is another place to make and argue political points.

To everyone who has fought in a war and everyone who has lost a loved one in a war, Memorial Day is a deeply personal day where faces and memories come back unbidden. To some, the significance of Memorial Day is greater than Veteran's Day.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 26 2014, 6:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Zamora

Most patrols were from squad to platoon sized, anywhere from 10 to 30 men. One day during monsoon we went on a company sized operation toward Dodge City. As with so much else, time clouds my memory, so I’ll write what I remember. There was a huge and sustained volume of gun fire to my right. We started forward and engaged the enemy so that there was a broad front (in front of me and to the right). To my horror I discovered that the person I’d loaned the gun to the night before had put the piston in backwards, so what I had was a 23.5 pound single-shot rifle – an awkward one at that. So in the midst of a battle I had to take the gun apart to turn the piston around and the thing was, it took me a few minutes to figure things out and in the meantime there was this screaming and someone firing 100 round bursts – screaming and charging the enemy. He got into their position and killed several and then everyone else caught up with him. What had happened was that Zamora had been killed and the gunner (Ray Escalera, who had loved him) went a little crazy. Zamora was one of those world-class good guys – there was nobody more solid than he was. The battle raged on for awhile, who could even guess how long.


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If your cup is full, may it be again

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PostIcon Posted on: May 26 2014, 6:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(buddero @ May 26 2014, 6:03 pm)
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Not that there is a duty to stay with the intent or spirit of the OP, but the post was respectful and apolitical - and I think it was made in conjunction with Memorial Day. "...young and dumb with a shallow and misdirected idea of patriotism" was disrespectful. There is another place to make and argue political points.

To everyone who has fought in a war and everyone who has lost a loved one in a war, Memorial Day is a deeply personal day where faces and memories come back unbidden. To some, the significance of Memorial Day is greater than Veteran's Day.

+1

Some people get that, others don't and never will...  

Semper Fi


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“The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle!”
General John Pershing, United States Army
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